Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

[22dr45]

I'm considering one of these Non-Firing replica rifles. From what I can gather they are not drilled for a touch hole but all else is functional. I have access to the right machinery or could just farm it out to a local smith to have it drilled. Does anyone have first hand experience with converting a non-firing replica (like the ones offered by Access Heritage) into a functional flintlock?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Some people have no qualms about these. I live in a lawsuit happy state, and I always have my repro muskets drilled before they are delivered to me.

Now I know you can find online companies that sell direct from India, or other companies where they sell a lot of muskets to Europe. IF the touch-hole is dilled, in many European nations the musket MUST be sent to a proofing house and it must pass... there is a fee involved. At least three of our members here on The Forum in the past have reported that they have had proofing done, no worries. However, if a person just wants to own and display such a musket in Europe..., they simply leave the touch hole undrilled, and no violation nor added costs.

Here in the USA I have my musket repros delivered "reenactment ready". They come with the touch hole drilled, and the flash guard in place. The lock is separate to conform to Canadian postal law, but install the lock by placing it into the stock and secure it with two screws, and voila, ready to go. I do this since if I drill the touch hole, I have just converted that musket to fire, and I am not a certified gunsmith. Even if I took it to a certified gunsmith to have it done, if the company where I bought the item sold it in a "non-firing condition"..., they are not liable since they had no control over what was done IF the barrel was to fail.

Does that mean that if by chance one of my barrels failed (I own four such guns and live fire with two), that I would ever recover damages after an accident and a lawsuit? I have no idea, but IF I was the one who converted the musket..., the answer is much more likely to be "nope".

LD

 

[Surfinator58]

I have several from military Heritage and they all spark well and shoot great after being drilled! There are a number of videos on how to do it on YouTube 11 Bang Bang is one such person who owns half a dozen or so from military Heritage also Murphy's muskets and others have done videos on these guns from India

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Get a real firing one from Veteran Arms!

 

[22dr45]

Get from Veteran Arms!

Thank you sir, that is the best price I've seen on a functioning replica. On the wish list (backordered)

 

[maillemaker]

Any of the firearms imported from India that were manufactured without a touch hole were manufactured as non-functional firearms. As I understand it, this is also true for the ones Veteran Arms sells.

You will have to decide for yourself if you are willing to take on the risk of using something as a firearm that was not manufactured to be a firearm. You will have no recourse with the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Any of the firearms imported from India that were manufactured without a touch hole were manufactured as non-functional firearms. As I understand it, this is also true for the ones Veteran Arms sells.

You will have to decide for yourself if you are willing to take on the risk of using something as a firearm that was not manufactured to be a firearm. You will have no recourse with the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

Sir … that alleged assertion you post is just flat out WRONG! Please don’t give people the wrong idea …

If anything, the touch holes are not added from the factory that made them due to import laws and customs.

Although my collection now consists of custom ams, or those I have made myself, I have had some Indian made replicas in the past, matchlocks and flintlocks.

Yes, the flintlocks need a little bit of care and some locks can use lots of tuning. However the matchlocks I’ve had, 3 of them and the one I presently own … have been perfect!

I once took an Indian 75-caliber matchlock, made measurements to the 10,000th of an inch every inch down the barrel … and proofed it myself with a double charge and double ball load. No changes in the barrel measurements. That was a sweet shooter … until somebody offered me stupid money for it, so I sold it and upgraded to a custom one by Brian Anderson.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Any of the firearms imported from India that were manufactured without a touch hole were manufactured as non-functional firearms. As I understand it, this is also true for the ones Veteran Arms sells.

You will have to decide for yourself if you are willing to take on the risk of using something as a firearm that was not manufactured to be a firearm. You will have no recourse with the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

Your statement indicates that you do not know, about which you are speaking…

 

[maillemaker]

Sir … that alleged assertion you post is just flat out WRONG! Please don’t give people the wrong idea …

Which assertion in particular are you saying is wrong? In what way is it wrong?

If anything, the touch holes are not added from the factory that made them due to import laws and customs.

Yes, I am aware of why the manufacturers are not manufacturing them to be functional firearms.

Your statement indicates that you do not know, about which you are speaking…

I am always cautious not to speak in absolutes on this subject. I don't own any Indian-made replicas. I can only go on what I have read on the internet about them. This is why I always caveat my statements with "my understanding", etc.

What I have read leads me to understand that the Indian manufacturers are not manufacturing their replicas as functional firearms. As Flint62Smoothie said, I have read that this is to avoid firearm import/export laws. But the reason is irrelevant. The point is, the manufacturer is not selling them as a functional firearm. Thus they will not lawfully be liable if something goes wrong and you (or someone else) modified the the non-functional replica to work like a firearm.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

As stated, I have owned black powder replicas from Middlesex Village Trading, Loyalist Arms, The Discriminating General and Veteran Arms. And I am probably shot ones from every Indian manufacturer.

AlI were designed to be used and shot, not just for reenactors using black powder blank loads, but with real shot and roundball loads.

FWIW, the non-shootable ‘wall hanger’ replicas are made by Denix.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’d avoid them, for a few reasons, which i won’t elaborate on too much. Not saying you can’t shoot them or love them, don’t take it personal.

1. Overall Quality; these Indian made muskets have a lot of quality issues, its rare that you’ll get a musket in top quality.
2. Authenticity, if you want a musket just to have a musket I think its fine, however you said you wanted a ‘Charleville’ I can assure you that any Indian made Charleville shares very little in common with an actual Charleville Musket, especially a 1766 pattern.
3. Hopefully you’re a strong fellow, because most Indian made muskets are overweight by 3-5 lbs.
4. Value; Indian made muskets do not appreciate in value, they often will sell for far less then their were purchased, so antipcate trading them away for items of lesser value.
5. Parts; All replacement parts need to be custom made and fit, you will almost never find a viable supplier of replacement parts.
6. Defarbing: making an Indian made gun authentic will cost almost as much as the gun itself, its a money pit dont do it.
7. Poor Locks: The locks are problematic.
8. Teak Stocks: Teak is not an ideal gunstock wood, its brittle and closed grained, it splits, shatters and peals. It would be the equivalent of stocking the gun with locust wood, great for decking and fetching but bad for guns.
9. Barrels: the barrels tend to be heavier, some are drawn over mandrel welded, I’d avoid any with DOM barrels, only hydraulic or solid carbon steel tubing.

 

[NorthFork]

I’d avoid them, for a few reasons, which i won’t elaborate on too much.

1. Overall Quality; these Indian made muskets have a lot of quality issues, its rare that you’ll get a musket in top quality.
2. Authenticity, if you want a musket just to have a musket I think its fine, however you said you wanted a ‘Charleville’ I can assure you that any Indian made Charleville shares very little in common with an actual Charleville Musket, especially a 1766 pattern.
3. Hopefully you’re a strong fellow, because most Indian made muskets are overweight by 3-5 lbs.
4. Value; Indian made muskets do not appreciate in value, they often will sell for far less then their were purchased, so antipcate trading them away for items of lesser value.
5. Parts; All replacement parts need to be custom made and fit, you will almost never find a viable supplier of replacement parts.
6. Defarbing: making an Indian made gun authentic will cost almost as much as the gun itself, its a money pit dont do it.

I don't have a dog in the fight here and I've loosely considered them in the past. The above post's thoughts have been the same as mine over the years. I just can't do it.

 

[FlinterNick]

Your statement indicates that you do not know, about which you are speaking…

I tend to question the guns being made without touch holes for a few reasons.

1. How do you know how long the breech plug is relevant to the pan’s location? This is very important.
2. Is the gun breeched correctly, these Indian made guns are not all identical nobody should assume their gun is breeched well enough to be vented.
3. I would not vent a DOM barrel, I’d have that barrel lined by a good barrel maker and then vented. A costly job.
4. If the gun is unvented to circumvent shipping laws then its not intended to be a gun until its been made into one… no thanks.

I always turn away unvented guns to work on, not putting myself liable.

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm considering one of these Non-Firing replica rifles. From what I can gather they are not drilled for a touch hole but all else is functional. I have access to the right machinery or could just farm it out to a local smith to have it drilled. Does anyone have first hand experience with converting a non-firing replica (like the ones offered by Access Heritage) into a functional flintlock?

I went to an arms show in Baltimore this year and had the opportunity to view and hold a military heritage 1728 charleville (vented and proofed) and was very disappointed for a few reasons. The gun weighed nearly 12 lbs, (no bayonet) 1728 charlevilles weighed no more than 8 1/2 lbs at the most. The stock was varnished in spar which just looked terrible. The lock and metal parts were polished up to 2000 grit, and to make it worse, they polished the filling marks on the cock, plate and springs. The ramrod was extremely flimsy and fragile. Wood to metal fit was filled in with spar varnish.

The ask was $1100 as defarbed and proofed.

I turned around and ordered a rifle shoppe 1717 charleville kit, it won’t be here for a few years I’d imagine but its worth waiting and dreaming about.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

The Indian Manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture fully functional firearms, in India. This restriction goes back to British Colonialism. To get around these legal restirctions, they manufacture a firearm, that will be fully functional, in every respect, once the flash hole is drilled. This also allows these firearms to be easily exported. Nothing to do with liability….nothing to do with import/export laws.

 

[brushblind]

I'll never buy one for the simple reason: If you can't put the gun in my hands when I give up my hard earned cash, then it is a no brainer. I'm not talking just India Made, I mean any and all manufacturers, American or what ever! At 66 years old I'm done waiting!

 

[maillemaker]

As stated, I have owned black powder replicas from Middlesex Village Trading, Loyalist Arms, The Discriminating General and Veteran Arms. And I am probably shot ones from every Indian manufacturer.

AlI were designed to be used and shot, not just for reenactors using black powder blank loads, but with real shot and roundball loads.

FWIW, the non-shootable ‘wall hanger’ replicas are made by Denix.

Note that this has nothing to do with them being manufactured to be firearms, which is what I stated earlier. It does not matter what was "designed". All that matters is what was sold. The Indian manufacturers are not selling functional firearms. As such, I doubt they will take any responsibility or liability for anything that goes wrong with one if it was converted to become a firearm. I also doubt you could sue them to force them to do so.

 

[maillemaker]

The Indian Manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture fully functional firearms, in India. This restriction goes back to British Colonialism. To get around these legal restirctions, they manufacture a firearm, that will be fully functional, in every respect, once the flash hole is drilled. This also allows these firearms to be easily exported. Nothing to do with liability….nothing to do with import/export laws.

This may well all be true, but it also shields them from liability. They did not manufacture a firearm, so they cannot be held liable if something goes wrong if you convert it to be one. Or if an importer does it for you.

Now if you are comfortable with that, good for you. But I myself am not going to purchase a thing to use it as a firearm if the manufacturer won't stand behind it as a firearm.

 

[John Spartan]

Lots of info flying back and forth. Maybe I need more coffee because I am not sure where we are landing here.
FWIW (knowing nothing of Indian export law) I was told point blank by one of the Canadian importers/sellers of these muskets that there are no touch holes so THEY can sell them - to the USA specifically - as non-firearms and drop them in the mail to buyers otherwise it would be a big ATF/import/export/licensing deal getting them here. How it works buying IN Canada or Europe I dunno. How true is the above? Also dunno. But it hardly matters as…

FWIW #2 I wouldn’t own a Indian musket for many reasons mentioned here. I’m sure they may be good ones but I don’t think it can be argued there are bad ones too. So far all my Euro made models have been flawless. When I put a explosive metal tube in front of my face I want some piece of mind and like seeing a European proof mark. I’ll pay the few extra dollars for my face, fingers, eyes, fit, finish, and parts availability.

 

[toot]

AND THE BEAT GOES ON! it will never stop!