I am covering the front sight in the middle of the bulls eye. I found some of the patches and the middle of the patches are not torn but the outside of the patches are shreaded. I started out shooting with 60 gr and bumped it up to 70gr with no change. Like I said in the 1st post Im GREEN at all of this. Ive read that all guns need their own load and you have to start low and go up and try different bullets, Ive tried 275gr maxi hunter and had the same results but I did up the grains of powder to 90grain thinking a heavier bullet needed more powder. I would think that there should be a standard starting load but everything I read says all guns like different loads. Ive spent alot of money trying different loads. I didnt realize these guns were that finiky to shoot. My sons shoots an inline gun, he drops in 2 50gr pellets and shoots groups at up to 100 yards with no problem.
not grouping at 25 yards
- Thread starter cokeman2
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Unless I missed it, you still haven't said how big your groups are. Outside edges of patch being frayed is normal. You might try using the bottom edge of the bull as a aiming point. It is more defined. Aim small, miss small.
I never could get a consistance group. shots would beleft then right , up and down between 2 to 4 inches. I even had my son and 1 of my buddies shoot and it was the same for them to. Im going to start over in the morning and start at 50 grains and try to group at 15 yards and move up slowly. I would have shot today but it was way too windy. Im pretty hard headed when I start something I dont give up easy. but sometimes when you dont know what your doing you have to ask someone that does
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I have a Thompson Center Hawken in 50 caliber. Although not the same rifle it probably has similar rifling to your gun. I have good luck at 50 yards with 50 grains of ffg black powder or Pyrodex RS. I've also upped the charge to about 80 grains when hunting. I have my sights set so a 6 o'clock hold at 50 yards works good with the 50 grain charge and the 80 grain charge is on with a center hold at 100. My eyes aren't what they used to be, but years back I could shoot minute of deer at 100 yards with the 80 grain load. I use pillow ticking for patch material and a 490 round ball.
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cokeman2 said:
:shake: ......That is not a solution to your problem.....THAT is quitting... :td:
I totally agree when i start something i like to finish it. But when you dont know what your doing you ask someone who does. Ill be starting over in the morning with 55 grs at 15 yards and moving up from there it was too windy today to try and shoot
Get a copy of Dutch Schoultz' "Black Powder Rifle Accuracy". If you search his name on this site you can pm him. It'about $20.00 but well worth the pennies spent. I agree with the others that the patch may be the problem
Then, listen to all of those who respond to your post for the wealth of information and experience they have. TC has a good reputation for their side locks. A few more trips to the range to work out the bugs and you will be hooked.
Then, listen to all of those who respond to your post for the wealth of information and experience they have. TC has a good reputation for their side locks. A few more trips to the range to work out the bugs and you will be hooked.
cokeman2 said:
The observation of the right to left movement of the groups tells me that one of your sights is moving. Make sure the sights are secure, the rear sight should be set to the middle of its operating range. Did you have variable light conditions? Sunlight can cause a glare that acts like sight movement. Shoot in the shade if you can. You can also make a shader from a paper towel roll center. Make a slit along the axis of the cylinder and slip it over your barrel and your sights. Make sure your hooked breech is well settled into the tang with no movement.
Up and down changes are often from movement of the shooter. Sometimes it is from a variation of the powder charge or weight of the ball. Slight flinches can give similar results. Practice dry firing to get the mechanics of firing the gun to be very familiar with no added movement from you as the lock releases. You will need some protection for the nipple.
I am betting it's not the sights, but that the patching isn't doing its job as Zonie suggested.
Plus there is this...
Huh?
Are you standing next to the bench, firing by supporting the rifle with your body alone?
If you are then stop. You need to be seated with the rifle supported on mechanical rests, like sandbags and wood, OR you need to be prone and using sandbags or using a sling to get into a very tight position. Too much minor wiggling any other way. You might be able to get a tight position sitting on the ground with crossed sticks supporting the muzzle.
LD
Plus there is this...
Huh?
Are you standing next to the bench, firing by supporting the rifle with your body alone?
If you are then stop. You need to be seated with the rifle supported on mechanical rests, like sandbags and wood, OR you need to be prone and using sandbags or using a sling to get into a very tight position. Too much minor wiggling any other way. You might be able to get a tight position sitting on the ground with crossed sticks supporting the muzzle.
LD
Cokrman2
It appears that you are doing much of what one should do with one outstanding exception.
You say you are shooting a 175 roundball which would be ridiculously small. Nearly a BeeBee.
You should be using .495 ball.
Correct me if I misread your post
I type errors rather a lot of late so I figure this must have been a typographical error.
Dutch Schoultz.
It appears that you are doing much of what one should do with one outstanding exception.
You say you are shooting a 175 roundball which would be ridiculously small. Nearly a BeeBee.
You should be using .495 ball.
Correct me if I misread your post
I type errors rather a lot of late so I figure this must have been a typographical error.
Dutch Schoultz.
don hepler
58 Cal.
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Another thing, about round ball hunting is, that you must treat the situation, much like bow hunting. You need to wait for at least an hour before trailing a deer. You do not have the "shock" factor, that a modern rifle has. Pushing game too early with bow and round ball, will end up bad.
A lot of times, there will be very little blood trail. Most of the bleeding, is internal and you must give the animal time. I look for deer, in an instinctive manner, trying to figure where the deer might head. Looking for cover near water, along a game trail, and often down hill. One hundred yards, can seem like a mile, in heavy cover.
A peep sight, is so much better, for hunting than a regular open sight, in my opinion.
You have to "want" to hunt with a traditional muzzle loader, to have success and that means practice and patients.
I always hated to lose a deer, but felt a little better when my father-in-law said to me. Son, you're not the only one on this planet, that has to eat. The critters, have to eat too. It's painful, to wound an animal, I know, but one bad result shouldn't stop you.
Best of luck, in the future.
A lot of times, there will be very little blood trail. Most of the bleeding, is internal and you must give the animal time. I look for deer, in an instinctive manner, trying to figure where the deer might head. Looking for cover near water, along a game trail, and often down hill. One hundred yards, can seem like a mile, in heavy cover.
A peep sight, is so much better, for hunting than a regular open sight, in my opinion.
You have to "want" to hunt with a traditional muzzle loader, to have success and that means practice and patients.
I always hated to lose a deer, but felt a little better when my father-in-law said to me. Son, you're not the only one on this planet, that has to eat. The critters, have to eat too. It's painful, to wound an animal, I know, but one bad result shouldn't stop you.
Best of luck, in the future.
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Aside from the shooter, there are only 3 variables that will produce the level of inaccuracy that you are experiencing at 25 yards.
loose or bad sights
Bad barrel or rifling
improperly patched projectile
Spending $20 on a digital calipers would be a good investment that you will be able to use for measuring many muzzleloading related things.
What is your twist rate and what is the depth of the rifling?
One thing you might try is cutting your powder charge in half and seeing how it groups.... if it groups significantly better, The problem is rifling related.
loose or bad sights
Bad barrel or rifling
improperly patched projectile
Spending $20 on a digital calipers would be a good investment that you will be able to use for measuring many muzzleloading related things.
What is your twist rate and what is the depth of the rifling?
One thing you might try is cutting your powder charge in half and seeing how it groups.... if it groups significantly better, The problem is rifling related.
bubba.50
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one thing that no-one has mentioned or asked about : how does the barrel fit in the stock? if it's loose or has any side-to-side or up-n-down movement whatsoever you'll NEVER get any consistent accuracy no matter what you do. this is quite common in T/C guns.
This is something many forget. My 'hunting' uncle taught me the old trick about waiting before looking for a kill. He used the "roll a Bugler cigarette and smoke it slowly" technique. Didn't wait an hour but 10-15 minutes usually worked. Impact wise, muzzleloading shots hit with a about the same energy as hunting with modern cartridge handguns...the technique is similar. Deer usually will run a bit and then often lay down because they feel "sick" as Uncle Bill put it. Very often I find them still down and usually dead. Let them get to a place they feel safe and nature will do the rest. :thumbsup: Approach cautiously, 'down' does not always mean 'out'!hadden west said:
jrmflintlock
45 Cal.
My uncle had a New Englander with really shallow rifling and it never shot Patched Roundball good. It shot Great Plains and Power Belts real nice though.
Shallow rifling is not much more than a lines down the barrel.
Good rifling for patched roundball is deeper and each grove is wider.
Not the best pictures but you should be able to see the difference.
The New Englander My uncle owned, had rifling like the top photo.
Good Luck and don't give up on black powder!
Shallow rifling is not much more than a lines down the barrel.
Good rifling for patched roundball is deeper and each grove is wider.
Not the best pictures but you should be able to see the difference.
The New Englander My uncle owned, had rifling like the top photo.
Good Luck and don't give up on black powder!
Well I think I have got it shooting ok now. What we did was shore up our shooting table and started shooting off of a bar stool. I dropped the load down to 60 grn and I have got it shooting 1 to 2 inches high at 25 yards I shot a 5 shot group just above the bulleyes. Now my next question with 60 grs of powder is it going to have enough knock down power to humanely kill a deer up 50 yards? Usinf 175 grn round balls. Where I will hunting that will be the longest shot I could take anyway, the woods are too thick where Im hunting. Thanx for you alls help with all your knowledge. PS the bore on this rifle looks like the 1 on the top in the previous post. Thanx again Cokeman2
jrmflintlock
45 Cal.
There you go!
60 grains should be plenty for a 50 yard shot, provided you poke them in the right spot.
The shallow rifling sometimes does not grab the patch enough to give it enough of a spin to stabilize it. Especially if you are pushing it too fast. In essence its like shooting a smooth bore.
Bullets with a cavity in the base, ie. Great planes, power belts etc grip the shallow rifling better. At least that's what I'm told.
Good Luck and don't forget we all like pictures!!
60 grains should be plenty for a 50 yard shot, provided you poke them in the right spot.
The shallow rifling sometimes does not grab the patch enough to give it enough of a spin to stabilize it. Especially if you are pushing it too fast. In essence its like shooting a smooth bore.
Bullets with a cavity in the base, ie. Great planes, power belts etc grip the shallow rifling better. At least that's what I'm told.
Good Luck and don't forget we all like pictures!!
60 grains of Pyrodex RS should give your .50 a muzzle velocity of around 1390 fps.
At 50 yards, the velocity will be around 1050 fps.
That gives your patched roundball more power than a .45 ACP shooting a 185 grain JHP bullet at point blank range.
The larger .50 caliber, lead roundball will also do more damage than the ACP's .45 caliber bullet because not only will it deform more but it is almost 1/16" larger in size before it starts to expand.
In other words, yes, it will easily kill a deer if the shot is somewhere in the chest cavity.
At 50 yards, the velocity will be around 1050 fps.
That gives your patched roundball more power than a .45 ACP shooting a 185 grain JHP bullet at point blank range.
The larger .50 caliber, lead roundball will also do more damage than the ACP's .45 caliber bullet because not only will it deform more but it is almost 1/16" larger in size before it starts to expand.
In other words, yes, it will easily kill a deer if the shot is somewhere in the chest cavity.
Congratulations on feeling better about what you are doing. You have a good starting point. Shoot some more to make sure it is not a random happening. Practice, feel more comfortable and confident with your rifle. Maybe play a bit with the powder charge level to see if it changes anything in point of impact. Always end your shooting session with your most confident load to end on a good note each day. Enjoy your rifle as it is starting to like you.
