Opinion on dog locks?

[Tx635]

I was looking at the rifle shope, and the have some cool lock styles I didn't think I would find. I've always been interested in early types of firearms but the two I always have wanted are flintlocks and matchlocks. So I was on this sight and saw both of those but also dog locks.
So what's everyones opinion on them? Have any of you got experience in using them or building with one? I may be interested in building one but I still haven't built anything yet. I do have a book on making Kentucky long rifles on the way. Would that translate to one of these dog lock weapons if I ended up building one

 

[martin9]

I wouldn't use a dog lock on a "Kentucky" rifle which is really a fully developed slim long rifle. The dog locks are for EARLY guns and are also a good fowler lock...again an early fowler. Ken Gahagan and Ian Pratt have made some really cool contemporary guns with dog locks. Try looking those up. I know a couple of them are on the contemporary makers blog spot. The blue and white painted fowler is probably the coolest fowler I've ever seen.

 

[Tx635]

I wouldn't use a dog lock on a "Kentucky" rifle which is really a fully developed slim long rifle. The dog locks are for EARLY guns and are also a good fowler lock...again an early fowler. Ken Gahagan and Ian Pratt have made some really cool contemporary guns with dog locks. Try looking those up. I know a couple of them are on the contemporary makers blog spot. The blue and white painted fowler is probably the coolest fowler I've ever seen.

I wouldn't build a Kentucky style rifle. It would be if made an early musket. I've seen a few pictures of some from around the time of queen Anne. I'm wondering if building something like that would be similar to a long rifle in construction methods?

 

[oreclan]

I wouldn't build a Kentucky style rifle. It would be if made an early musket. I've seen a few pictures of some from around the time of queen Anne. I'm wondering if building something like that would be similar to a long rifle in construction methods?

Short answer...yes, however a round fowler barrel and appropriate furniture are important. Get some good reference books for inspiration.

 

[Tx635]

Short answer...yes, however a round fowler barrel and appropriate furniture are important. Get some good reference books for inspiration.

Thank you very much. I'm definitely finding a lot of things that I'm liking in the muzzleloading hobby and I'm glad to be able to find people who are willing to tell me how to figure things out. I was planning on building a long rifle but I'm now debating between a dog lock musket or the long rifle.

 

[oreclan]

Try this as a great reference.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/269/1/BOOK-FF-S

 

[Tx635]

Try this as a great reference.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/269/1/BOOK-FF-S

That seems like a great source of info. Thank you very much.

 

[Tx635]

Try this as a great reference.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/269/1/BOOK-FF-S

I also found this sight that has a few pictures of a nice musket that reminds me of a brown Bess a little. I really like this one

 

[dave_person]

Hi Tx635,
Dog or "ketch" locks were largely made and used by English gun makers. Brian Godwin, perhaps the most knowledgeable expert on these locks also calls them "type 2 English locks". They were England's answer to the French flintlock during the later half of the 17th century. They are sturdy, simply made locks usually with tumblers lacking a half cock notch, hence the dog catch. Being early, they have deficiencies. There is usually no internal bridle supporting the tumbler on the inside. The tumbler is supported only by its post going through the lock plate and the flint cock. That was an inherently weak arrangement that wore over time. The dog catch itself was not liked by soldiers using muskets equipped with them and they much preferred later versions that had half cock notches and then removed the dog catch. The thin cocks often broke. Also they usually did not have fences on the back of the pan allowing the wood of the stock at the breech to get charred from the flask of priming. Their advantage was they were cheaper to make than true flintlocks. Sweden and Norway also made military guns with dog catches late into the 18th century, however, I believe those locks had tumblers with half cock notches so the "ketch" was kind of over kill.

dave

 

[Tx635]

Hi Tx635,
Dog or "ketch" locks were largely made and used by English gun makers. Brian Godwin, perhaps the most knowledgeable expert on these locks also calls them "type 2 English locks". They were England's answer to the French flintlock during the later half of the 17th century. They are sturdy, simply made locks usually with tumblers lacking a half cock notch, hence the dog catch. Being early, they have deficiencies. There is usually no internal bridle supporting the tumbler on the inside. The tumbler is supported only by its post going through the lock plate and the flint cock. That was an inherently weak arrangement that wore over time. The dog catch itself was not liked by soldiers using muskets equipped with them and they much preferred later versions that had half cock notches and then removed the dog catch. The thin cocks often broke. Also they usually did not have fences on the back of the pan allowing the wood of the stock at the breech to get charred from the flask of priming. Their advantage was they were cheaper to make than true flintlocks. Sweden and Norway also made military guns with dog catches late into the 18th century, however, I believe those locks had tumblers with half cock notches so the "ketch" was kind of over kill.

dave

Dave that is definitely good to know. So I'll have to keep an eye out for scotching and look after my parts to be sure everything is in tip top shape. I'll definitely keep these in mind if I do build a dog lock.

 

[Rudyard]

If we are talking' English lock' locks that may or may not have some sort of 'Dog' catch there would seem three progressive styles the earlist early 16 th c followed by a mid 16th as in the English civil wars. These largley with a lock plate much like the contempory snaphance then a final very like the flint lock in appearance surviveing into William & Marys times. But still having the horizantal scear .Non relying on the dog but it was thought prudent to add one . Having made & used all three types without the Rifle Shoppe castings .My findings are that while they offer no particular advantage over the flint lock of the respective periods they served well enough . And I've made early flint locks too . I only made one gun reliant soley on a dog for half cock . Which was the Rhine valley Rifle after Bickle in George Shumways Jager rifle booklet though he describes it as a flintlock & I never saw the internals. I gave up on any half cock bent with the set trigger set up it has . Non of these sorts would I advocate as better but they all worked and .I rather like to dabble beyond the excepted norm . & yes I should have photographs .
Rudyard

 

[Tx635]

If we are talking' English lock' locks that may or may not have some sort of 'Dog' catch there would seem three progressive styles the earlist early 16 th c followed by a mid 16th as in the English civil wars. These largley with a lock plate much like the contempory snaphance then a final very like the flint lock in appearance surviveing into William & Marys times. But still having the horizantal scear .Non relying on the dog but it was thought prudent to add one . Having made & used all three types without the Rifle Shoppe castings .My findings are that while they offer no particular advantage over the flint lock of the respective periods they served well enough . And I've made early flint locks too . I only made one gun reliant soley on a dog for half cock . Which was the Rhine valley Rifle after Bickle in George Shumways Jager rifle booklet though he describes it as a flintlock & I never saw the internals. I gave up on any half cock bent with the set trigger set up it has . Non of these sorts would I advocate as better but they all worked and .I rather like to dabble beyond the excepted norm . & yes I should have photographs .
Rudyard

Very interesting indeed. Would you recommend a dog lock casting from the rifle shope? I've never built a rifle like these let alone fit parts together. How hard was it

 

[Sam squanch]

If it’s your first build, I’d go for it. A good practice piece. If your in letting is a little off , well, the original dog lock muskets were somewhat crude anyway. And most saw very hard use.

 

[Sam squanch]

If you take your time , and get someone experienced to temper the springs, you can do it. Just don’t file or grind off too much on the parts. And study how the parts interact with each other. Go slow. A drill press is a must.

 

[Tx635]

If it’s your first build, I’d go for it. A good practice piece. If your in letting is a little off , well, the original dog lock muskets were somewhat crude anyway. And most saw very hard use.

Thank you. It's definitely one I'm thinking about. I may end up making my own kind of fancy musket with it. I've seen first pattern brown Bess replica barrels and theirs a 12ga octagon to round Fowler I'm that thinking about using with one of those actions.

 

[Sam squanch]

I would not concentrate on “ fancy “. Just good workmanship on the inletting and stock lines. Most were plain Jane guns...and learn to sharpen your chisels!

 

[Tx635]

I would not concentrate on “ fancy “. Just good workmanship on the inletting and stock lines. Most were plain Jane guns...and learn to sharpen your chisels!

Absolutely. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Tx635]

I would not concentrate on “ fancy “. Just good workmanship on the inletting and stock lines. Most were plain Jane guns...and learn to sharpen your chisels!

I also ment fantasy. My phone auto corrected. So much for smart phones.

 

[Rudyard]

Very interesting indeed. Would you recommend a dog lock casting from the rifle shope? I've never built a rifle like these let alone fit parts together. How hard was it

Not having used any TRS locks as I mentioned I cant say but many have so I've no doubt they are fine .
Rudyard

 

[Tx635]

Not having used any TRS locks as I mentioned I cant say but many have so I've no doubt they are fine .
Rudyard

Thank you very much for the vote of confidence in there work.