Opinion on dog locks?

[dave_person]

Hi,
What you get from TRS is a pile of cast parts right from the molds. They also have precarved stocks and barrels to go along with the cast parts. Here is an example showing parts for an early pattern Brown Bess musket.

Which then gets made into this:

A musket sized English dog lock is a good first project for this kind of work because it is simple and the parts are large. Usually, that means they have enough extra metal for you to work with. Small pistol locks are not good first projects because they require exact precision of fitting with no room for error. The key for any lock without an internal bridle is a precise fit of the tumbler post in the hole in the lock plate. You have to fit the parts but also heat treat them. Springs, internal parts, frizzen, and often the lock plate and flintcock have to be hardened and then tempered. The Rifle Shoppe (TRS) will assemble locks for you but the wait for those can be very long. If they have your parts in stock, they usually are prompt in sending them out but if they have to wait on a foundry run, it can be months even a year before you get the parts. The best way to order is to call them to see if the parts are in stock. Usually you will speak with Jane Melot but often you need to leave a message or call several times to get someone. They are a small mom and pop business and everybody is doing multiple tasks. The quality of the parts is usually very good but often lock plates have to be flattened because they may have a slight warp from the casting process. You need to be very careful with small parts because sometimes a portion of the part is buried within the casting sprue, which you file or cut away. A welder is also very useful for filling in metal where shrinkage or casting flaws compromise the fit of a part.

I've made a lot of TRS locks and overall am happy with their products. I've always been able to turn their parts sets into fine locks and firearms but it can be a bit of work and it helps to understand all the details concerning what you are making. Because you may wait months for some components, I rarely order anything I need in a hurry. I order for projects I intend to start months even a year in the future.
Here is a link to a paper that may be useful.

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...5-A-Note-on-Flint-locks-and-the-Flintlock.pdf
dave

 

[Tx635]

Hi,
What you get from TRS is a pile of cast parts right from the molds. They also have precarved stocks and barrels to go along with the cast parts. Here is an example showing parts for an early pattern Brown Bess musket.

Which then gets made into this:

A musket sized English dog lock is a good first project for this kind of work because it is simple and the parts are large. Usually, that means they have enough extra metal for you to work with. Small pistol locks are not good first projects because they require exact precision of fitting with no room for error. The key for any lock without an internal bridle is a precise fit of the tumbler post in the hole in the lock plate. You have to fit the parts but also heat treat them. Springs, internal parts, frizzen, and often the lock plate and flintcock have to be hardened and then tempered. The Rifle Shoppe (TRS) will assemble locks for you but the wait for those can be very long. If they have your parts in stock, they usually are prompt in sending them out but if they have to wait on a foundry run, it can be months even a year before you get the parts. The best way to order is to call them to see if the parts are in stock. Usually you will speak with Jane Melot but often you need to leave a message or call several times to get someone. They are a small mom and pop business and everybody is doing multiple tasks. The quality of the parts is usually very good but often lock plates have to be flattened because they may have a slight warp from the casting process. You need to be very careful with small parts because sometimes a portion of the part is buried within the casting sprue, which you file or cut away. A welder is also very useful for filling in metal where shrinkage or casting flaws compromise the fit of a part.

I've made a lot of TRS locks and overall am happy with their products. I've always been able to turn their parts sets into fine locks and firearms but it can be a bit of work and it helps to understand all the details concerning what you are making. Because you may wait months for some components, I rarely order anything I need in a hurry. I order for projects I intend to start months even a year in the future.
Here is a link to a paper that may be useful.

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...5-A-Note-on-Flint-locks-and-the-Flintlock.pdf
dave

That sounds great. I think that may be one of the best option. I also did some digging and apparently the leader of the green mountain boys had a dog lock during the revelution. I haven't done too much digging on it but I find it very fascinating none the less.
I was also showing a buddy that sight too and he wants to build a wheel lock once he's legally able to. He's big into knights and it's something he's always wonted, but this will be a good start before anything like that

 

[Ian Straus]

Hi Tx635,
Dog or "ketch" locks were largely made and used by English gun makers. Brian Godwin, perhaps the most knowledgeable expert on these locks also calls them "type 2 English locks". They were England's answer to the French flintlock during the later half of the 17th century. ......

A friend of mine, the Bexar county archivist in charge of the old Spanish records, wrote a short article for our club newsletter about Miquelet muskets.
The Miquelet lock appears to be a dog lock, and was used by the Spanish and in Mexico in the late 17th and the 18th centuries. There are some examples in museums here, and I have examined one (without touching) on display at the Institute of Texas Cultures. Sure enough, I believe I saw the '"dogs" in the lock. Anyway, the works (mainspring etc.) are on the outside of the lock plate.

This article Miquelet lock - Wikipedia
has some more descriptions and definitions. I'd like to point out these paragraphs:

"Two main forms of the miquelet were produced: The Spanish lock, where the mainspring pushed up on the heel of the cock foot and the two sears engaged the toe of the cock foot, and the Italian or Roman lock, where the mainspring pushed down on the toe of the cock foot and the sears engaged the cock on the heel of the foot. Neither form was confined exclusively to either country, that is, both Roman locks of Spanish manufacture and Spanish locks of Italian manufacture are not uncommon.[10]

The features most associated with the miquelet are the horizontal sears, acting through the lockplate, coupled with the external mainspring and the top jaw screw ring. Experts agree that the use of horizontally acting sears is the true defining feature because some variations of the miquelet do not have the external mainspring and/or the large top jaw screw ring.[11]"

So if you want to go a little more exotic than the English styles of muskets, and still (North) American, you might look for images of these. Here is an image one in a bad state of repair -

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/spanish-miquelet-flintlock-at-ria/

 

[Tx635]

A friend of mine, the Bexar county archivist in charge of the old Spanish records, wrote a short article for our club newsletter about Miquelet muskets.
The Miquelet lock appears to be a dog lock, and was used by the Spanish and in Mexico in the late 17th and the 18th centuries. There are some examples in museums here, and I have examined one (without touching) on display at the Institute of Texas Cultures. Sure enough, I believe I saw the '"dogs" in the lock. Anyway, the works (mainspring etc.) are on the outside of the lock plate.

This article Miquelet lock - Wikipedia
has some more descriptions and definitions. I'd like to point out these paragraphs:

"Two main forms of the miquelet were produced: The Spanish lock, where the mainspring pushed up on the heel of the cock foot and the two sears engaged the toe of the cock foot, and the Italian or Roman lock, where the mainspring pushed down on the toe of the cock foot and the sears engaged the cock on the heel of the foot. Neither form was confined exclusively to either country, that is, both Roman locks of Spanish manufacture and Spanish locks of Italian manufacture are not uncommon.[10]

The features most associated with the miquelet are the horizontal sears, acting through the lockplate, coupled with the external mainspring and the top jaw screw ring. Experts agree that the use of horizontally acting sears is the true defining feature because some variations of the miquelet do not have the external mainspring and/or the large top jaw screw ring.[11]"

So if you want to go a little more exotic than the English styles of muskets, and still (North) American, you might look for images of these. Here is an image one in a bad state of repair -

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/spanish-miquelet-flintlock-at-ria/

Very interesting indeed. I love how knowledgeable the members of this site are and how helpful they are too. It really means a lot to have people give you logical advice and tell you not only what they think but what they know and how they feel about these things.
Everyone here really is amazing

 

[Ranger 1755]

My latest addition is a Rifle Shop 1685 Cookson Doglock. I opted for the assembled lock with the components. It turned out to be a very robust gun, a little over 62 inches long and weighing 8 1/2 pounds with a 46 inch barrel in 10 gauge, it is heavy octagon at the breech, tapered to one wedding band and then round. The front sight is a brass face with the nose being the blade. If you never built a gun from the Rifle Shop, it is NOT a Kibler kit and expect to wait a year for it to ship. But they do offer some unique components packages. I will use this piece for my pre 1700 Ranger impression and my CT Provincial impression 1755. The stock is walnut and starts to show the familiar drop that we see in later fowlers. The lock and side plate are the 3 screw type and the last screw had to be floated a bit to clear the ramrod channel. The trigger guard and pipes are steel and the butt plate and side plate brass which was typical on some early New England guns. No entry pipe and no swell in the stock. The trigger guard is surface mounted and the butt plate nailed on. The butt plate itself is just simple thick sheet brass with a long plain tang. I like the end result, a simple early New England gun that will also be used for spring turkey next year.

 

[Tx635]

My latest addition is a Rifle Shop 1685 Cookson Doglock. I opted for the assembled lock with the components. It turned out to be a very robust gun, a little over 62 inches long and weighing 8 1/2 pounds with a 46 inch barrel in 10 gauge, it is heavy octagon at the breech, tapered to one wedding band and then round. The front sight is a brass face with the nose being the blade. If you never built a gun from the Rifle Shop, it is NOT a Kibler kit and expect to wait a year for it to ship. But they do offer some unique components packages. I will use this piece for my pre 1700 Ranger impression and my CT Provincial impression 1755. The stock is walnut and starts to show the familiar drop that we see in later fowlers. The lock and side plate are the 3 screw type and the last screw had to be floated a bit to clear the ramrod channel. The trigger guard and pipes are steel and the butt plate and side plate brass which was typical on some early New England guns. No entry pipe and no swell in the stock. The trigger guard is surface mounted and the butt plate nailed on. The butt plate itself is just simple thick sheet brass with a long plain tang. I like the end result, a simple early New England gun that will also be used for spring turkey next year.

Nice. I love that build. I'm most likely going to purchase the lock and side plate by themselves and assemble most other parts from other sources. Most likely track of the wolf for the barrel, they have a 12ga Fowler or first model brown Bess barrel that I'm looking at. I wish I knew another place that has 10ga smooth bore barrels like that Fowler in stock.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The Miquelet is not a dog lock. Below is an English dog lock on a 17th century breech loading rifle. The dog is the dog-headed shaped catch ("ketch") behind the cock that holds it in half cock position.

Spanish (Miquelet) locks have a very secure half cock and full cock engagements. They are some of the strongest and most reliable locks ever made.

dave

 

[Ranger 1755]

Nice. I love that build. I'm most likely going to purchase the lock and side plate by themselves and assemble most other parts from other sources. Most likely track of the wolf for the barrel, they have a 12ga Fowler or first model brown Bess barrel that I'm looking at. I wish I knew another place that has 10ga smooth bore barrels like that Fowler in stock.

I bought the 10 gauge barrel with the components from the Rifle Shop, they had it

 

[Tx635]

Hi,
The Miquelet is not a dog lock. Below is an English dog lock on a 17th century breech loading rifle. The dog is the dog-headed shaped catch ("ketch") behind the cock that holds it in half cock position.

Spanish (Miquelet) locks have a very secure half cock and full cock engagements. They are some of the strongest and most reliable locks ever made.

dave

Wow. Thanks Dave. Im glad to hear that they are good actions. I think this may be what I do.

 

[Tx635]

I bought the 10 gauge barrel with the components from the Rifle Shop, they had it

I know but I'm no super keen on the full kit from them. It looks fantastic but the price and wait is a little steep. I'll probably call before I order anything to make sure they have parts in stock
I'm also thinking about doing a "what would I do if I didn't have the money for a new rifle back in the 18th century

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I don't buy stocks from them if I can avoid it. I am not impressed with the quality of their precarves plus I end up making more historically correct stock myself. Here is an example using a TRS stock, which I had to really fix and upgrade.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ish-pattern-1760-light-infantry-fusil.116956/
dave

 

[Tx635]

Hi,
I don't buy stocks from them if I can avoid it. I am not impressed with the quality of their precarves plus I end up making more historically correct stock myself. Here is an example using a TRS stock, which I had to really fix and upgrade.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ish-pattern-1760-light-infantry-fusil.116956/
dave

Are their barrels any good? And I can see what you mean by in impressive. Where would a good place to get a stock for a 10ga octagon to round barrel be if I found one to use.

 

[Sam squanch]

Some early miquelets had a dog catch. Very early ones!

 

[oreclan]

Very interesting indeed. Would you recommend a dog lock casting from the rifle shope? I've never built a rifle like these let alone fit parts together. How hard was it

TRS will sell you a completed lock. I have bought several assembled locks from them( Swedish snaphaunce and Dutch matchlock) as I am not a machinist and the only Siler lock kit I built was 'iffy.'

 

[BadDaditood]

Re: TRS I was going to say what Dave Person said, only not near as precise or concise.
Last week I received the Harpers ferry parts I ordered almost exactly a year ago. I had them assemble the finished lock which added to the wait.
It looks great and should finish out well, in spite of the dang precarved stock... I keep telling myself “never again” but 3 more kits piled up in my garage while waiting for TRS.
I shouldn’t complain, for what I paid for them I can easily buy 3 blanks if necessary.
Enjoy your 10 ga. Project! Post pics!

 

[Tx635]

Re: TRS I was going to say what Dave Person said, only not near as precise or concise.
Last week I received the Harpers ferry parts I ordered almost exactly a year ago. I had them assemble the finished lock which added to the wait.
It looks great and should finish out well, in spite of the dang precarved stock... I keep telling myself “never again” but 3 more kits piled up in my garage while waiting for TRS.
I shouldn’t complain, for what I paid for them I can easily buy 3 blanks if necessary.
Enjoy your 10 ga. Project! Post pics!

Nice. Hopefully yours will turn into something great. I'll probably start getting parts after I move into my new apartment but I'm still debating on if I'll just go with the 12ga and have the Barrel profile I want or the brown Bess and the bore diameter I want. I'm planning on mostly using round balls but may load shot on occasion.

 

[Tx635]

TRS will sell you a completed lock. I have bought several assembled locks from them( Swedish snaphaunce and Dutch matchlock) as I am not a machinist and the only Siler lock kit I built was 'iffy.'

I see thank you very much for the heads up

 

[Poguetx]

I have a doglock blunderbus like those at Loyalist and Middlesex. Since it lacks the tumbler mechanism found on later locks, the trigger pull is VERY heavy, since all the pressure of the mainspring is on the sear. It maxes out my trigger pull scale.

 

[Tx635]

I have a doglock blunderbus like those at Loyalist and Middlesex. Since it lacks the tumbler mechanism found on later locks, the trigger pull is VERY heavy, since all the pressure of the mainspring is on the sear. It maxes out my trigger pull scale.

Wow. That is very nice to know. Do you find it a hindrance at all? Also did you ever get used to it?

 

[rickystl]

Last time I talked to Jane at TRS she mentioned that COMPLETED locks were a year out.

I ordered a pre-carved stock (only) back on 04/05. Was supposed to be 2-3 weeks to ship. I followed up with an email on 04/27. The stock cutter was running a little behind, but hopefully ship the following week. Today, 06/03 still waiting. (I hope the pre-carve is usable ) Last one I received was good. Seems the quality of the pre-carved stocks are a hit or miss (?)

Rick