Original 18th century Virginia Rifle

[Stophel]

would it not stand to reason that maybe early longrifles were more like a fowling piece with a rifled barrel than they were a stretched out Jaeger rifle? Especially those in areas with a population of more British extraction than German?

Well, that's exactly what you do see in guns like the Williamsburg gun, or the "Faber" gun. The "Faber" gun is basically a chunky British musket with a grip-railed triggerguard added and a sorry excuse for a cheekpiece stuck on the side of the stock.

 

[rich pierce]

If early Virginia Rifles were as diverse as 1770s era PA rifles, trying to discern what they all looked like is even more impossible than most are considering.

Compare the Schreit 1761 rifle, the earliest Dickert rifles, the Christians Spring rifles, and early Reading rifles like #20 and #21 in Rifles of Colonial America. Now ask and answer “What did early Pennsylvania rifles look like?” The answer is, “They varied a LOT.”

I consider that any rifles made in the 1760s were “pre-school” rifles. Expecting some uniformity before masters developed a lot of apprentices and before gunmaking centers built up seems wishful thinking.

 

[Brokennock]

I was kind of thinking more along the lines of adding a rifled barrel, sights, etc. to an ready commonly built design, regardless of where it was built, Virginia or Pennsylvania, or Maryland, or North Carolina for that matter. I'm still uncertain of what the tell tale distinguishing characteristics of a Virginia rifle are.
Maybe I'm unqualified to even muddy these waters....

 

[Brokennock]

I wish Colonial Williamsburg would update their webpage, but that would not fit their interests I guess.

Here is an early rifle that could be from anywhere and built by someone not steeped in Germanic styles.View attachment 24331View attachment 24332View attachment 24333View attachment 24334View attachment 24335View attachment 24336View attachment 24337View attachment 24338

I would really like to know more about this rifle. How do we know it is "early" and whatever other particulars are available. Not sure why I didn't ask sooner. Other than that "patch box" looking abomination, I like the gun.
Thanks.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
One problem with Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America" is it really doesn't provide any timeline over which rifle culture developed in America. Reading Shumway leaves you with the impression that all the "schools" or styles existed simultaneously and long rifle making was wide spread over the colonies from the beginning. It almost certainly was not and the epicenters were wherever Germanic immigrants settled. Britain did not have a big rifle culture. They made deer park rifles as early as the English Civil War but the market was very small, restricted to land owning gentry, and when they did make rifles they tended to mimic the Germans. Gus' example of Phillip Lee ordering a Turvey rifle from London in the 1730s or 1740s (Turvey died in 1745) may be a nice example. Lee was landed gentry and was familiar with rifles but apparently the local choices in Virginia did not satisfy him. Perhaps because those choices were pretty limited and not very good. In New England, even by the Rev War, few people were familiar with rifles and were amazed by the accurate shooting of Morgan's men during the siege of Boston in 1775. William Penn shuttled his German immigrants through Quaker Philadelphia and out to the frontiers of his lands to farm and act as a buffer between the settled coast and the native tribes. Hence, Philadelphia was not known as a rifle center until late in the 18th century but Lancaster and Reading were. Although settled earlier, both towns were established as such during the 1740s and 1750s. Gun repair can be a mobile occupation, gun making, and more so rifle making, is not. It requires a reliable pipeline of raw and/or manufactured materials and infrastructure. Gun repairers and gun traders could follow the pioneers but they all had to go back east to a major community to get their guns. I think it is safe to say that to understand the what, where, and when of rifle making in colonial America, follow the Germans. The wagon road from Lancaster lead south through Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina but it took time for the German immigrants to spread down it. Salem NC, was not established until 1753, little more than 20 years before the AWI. The Moravians, who were responsible for much of that spread, did most of their gun business with the indians. There did not seem to be much of a rifle market among the colonists until the explosion that was the French and Indian War in 1755. I think that changed everything and rifle ownership on the frontiers as well as in rural towns became popular. That war ended in 1763, only 12 years before the Revolution. In my opinion, to speak of any local rifle styles or schools in colonial America or assume a well entrenched rifle culture among the colonists even on the frontiers before 1760 is a bit absurd.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

How to know an original gun is early? First, look at the parts. No gun can be earlier than it’s latest feature that was there when the gun was built. Lock styles changed over time, as did barrel profiles. Buttplates and guards, the same. Architecture of European guns changed over time, and many/most early gunsmiths were trained in Europe.

Early rifles made here were made by gunsmiths who knew what a rifle looks like, where they were trained. And customers knew what a rifle looked like, wherever they had encountered them. In the very early years before recognizable colonial styles developed the 2 styles folks would have known were, broadly speaking, English and Germanic. And white settlers would have known those styles from their heritage and what they bought as imports. Native American rifle users would not have had a rifle culture for long, and they were prime customers in the mid 1700s. This has stoked the plausible hypothesis that Native American preferences helped form some broadly found characteristics of the early American longrifle such as barrel lengths in the longer range of those being made in the British Isles and mainland Europe.

(good morning, Dave, good friend! Think we were both typing at the same time!)

 

[Brokennock]

Thank you both, Dave and Rich for your informative replys.
I guess when I think "early" regarding colonial rifles, I'm not thinking as early as some. I'm thinking 1755ish to 1770ish.

So, as has been alluded to before, especially in some other topics, is the "early Virginia" style/school pure fantasy? If we call early 1755 to 1765ish, any Virginia rifle builders on the books? When do we start seeing gun builders show up in Virginia, in court records, census info, and the like? Are there any tell tale, instant indicators, of guns built there as opposed to, say, Lancaster?

Lest we overly dwell on Virginia, how do we define early for rifles being built further north in Pennsylvania?

 

[smo]

Great questions BN ...inquiring minds want too know.

 

[rich pierce]

The current crop of guns some builders offer as “Early Virginia” vary from guns based on the Faber rifle which may be a Virginia rifle 1760-something to 1770-something, or the Haymaker rifle which is Virginia made and probably 1770s.

Or they are meeting customers desires for an iron mounted rifle. There is the “Old Holston rifle” which is attributed to SW Virginia and has iron forged buttplate and guard and is stocked in black walnut.

I think the issue is that any generic description of any rifle, such as “early Virginia” or “early Pennsylvania” tell us nothing about which guns or makers the build is based on. In the worst case, the build is based on nothing historic. Example: “Carolina rifle.”

And in reality, many customers just want something that they have been told is based on originals from their neck of the woods in their timeframe of interest.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
To add to Rich's post, even looking at early records and advertisements can be misleading because the gunsmith might just be doing repair work and the gun seller just importing guns. One thing did occur to me today. George Washington was in command of the Virginia militia on the frontiers during the French and Indian War. He kept records, particularly of expenses, and I wonder if those records give any insight into rifle use at that time and place?

dave

 

[Oldbear63]

Does this rifle have multiple vent holes? Was this common?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Below is a great link to some F&I war documents from Virginia. The document cited below and dated 1755 describes several companies of "rifle men" distinct from militia.
http://www.wvculture.org/history/frenchandindian/17550819virginiagazette.html

dave

 

[rich pierce]

I think this document may be mis-catalogued on that website and belongs in Revolutionary War archives. Captain Cresap and Morgan served together in the Revolutionary War. I think they’d have been too young to be captains in the F&I War.

 

[Stophel]

I would say that most modern day "Early Virginia" rifles are basically based on Hershel House guns, which are more or less based on Virginia guns from the 1790's-1800's. Earlified and Ironized.

I would also say that what rifles that were made in Virginia prior to the Revolution (and there certainly were some) would most likely be like the "Faber" gun, or "RCA #118", shown earlier in this thread. Whether or not these examples were actually made in Virginia or not, no one knows, but they fit the assumptions that I think are logical. A gun essentially of English form, with or without a little square cheekpiece wannabe thing stuck on the side of the stock. Of course, these types of rifles could have been made anywhere there was a gunsmith of English extraction who was unfamiliar with proper German/Swiss rifle form.

I think that the familiar "German type" rifles would, for the most part, begin to be seen in Virginia as Germans started coming down the valley from Pennsylvania, at whatever date that might have been. There are some "early" iron mounted rifles that appear to have "come from" Virginia ("black rifles"???), but personally, I would not put a pre-1780 date on any of them that I have seen so far. I also don't think anyone has done a very good job at all of demonstrating, much less proving, that the "brass barreled rifle" (and the matching hook breech gun, RCA #145) were made in Virginia.

In Pennsylvania, things aren't a whole lot easier, when it comes to dating guns. There are known German/Swiss gunsmiths going back to the early 18th century, but there are no known examples of their work (the "Martin Meillin" gun notwithstanding.... ). Lancaster county was chock full of gunsmiths going way back, but I don't know of any existing guns with probably-genuine dates prior to the early 1770's.

Assuming the signature and date are genuine (and I never assume that), the 1761 Schreidt rifle is the earliest thing we have to use as a benchmark. I think it is relatively safe to say that some of the Bethlehem/Christian's Spring guns that exist MAY predate 1760, but beyond that... we got nothin.

Along with Schreidt, Wolfgang Hachen (and Nicholas too, I think.., along with a couple others) was working as a gunsmith in Reading in the 1750's, but are any of the "Wolfgang Haga" Reading guns that early??? Remember also that Reading in 1750 was a brand new town of about 600 people....

Rifles were around, they were made, but I think they were relatively few, and what they looked like is conjecture.

 

[rich pierce]

Interesting thumbnail history of Lancaster PA history in the 1700s here: https://www.cityoflancasterpa.com/lancaster-in-the-1700s-2/

 

[dave_person]

I think this document may be mis-catalogued on that website and belongs in Revolutionary War archives. Captain Cresap and Morgan served together in the Revolutionary War. I think they’d have been too young to be captains in the F&I War.

Hi Richard,
It is absolutely dated wrong. Captain Morgan heading to Boston is not a F&I war event. The date should be 1775 not 1755. Michael Cresap died before his company was ever engaged in the war.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rich,
I have to relate this to you and the other participants in this thread. I read the document in the link I provided above seeing the cataloged date of 1755 and not thinking it could be wrong. While I read it and saw mention of Cresap, I thought "hum, there was a Cresap rifle company in the Rev War too. What a coincidence". Then I read the mention of Morgan and thought "that can't be Daniel Morgan since he was a young wagoner so there must be another Morgan with a company of rifle men in the F&I war and they went to Boston! Another coincidence. Why did they go to Boston during the F&I war?"

Rich, it took your post to hit my head with the proverbial brick.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

It rang a bell with me as something I’d read before about Morgan’s riflemen heading to Boston during the Revolutionary War. They must have been a sight to see!

 

[dave_person]

It rang a bell with me as something I’d read before about Morgan’s riflemen heading to Boston during the Revolutionary War. They must have been a sight to see!

Especially if they started in 1755.

 

[Brokennock]

Thank you for all the great replies. There is a lot of interesting information here.

Despite feeling like the real fact of the matter is that there really is no "early Virginia" rifle style to be found, I do have a question regarding what some have defined as part of what is considered the style/school. I have often wondered, when everything else considered "early" regarding colonial firearms dictates brass furniture, why does the "early Virginia" seem defined partly by iron or steel furniture? Were not the same commerce laws regarding manufacturing of iron/steel goods in place in Virginia as elsewhere?