Original 18th century Virginia Rifle

[Brokennock]

I have no idea where this is going now.... British made iron gun mounts in German style imported to America.....

I am questioning the logic behind the current fad of building guns referred to as "early Virginia" style and having a somewhat defining characteristic be the use of iron furniture. If the commerce laws were such that gunsmiths had to choose between buying and importing iron locks, trigger guards, buttplates, ramrod thimbles, and such, from Britain, or casting them out of brass themselves, I would think they would use brass furniture and an imported lock. The Pennsylvania builders did. And, why would a British manufacturer be making rifle style trigger guards? Meaning having a grip rail, a loop big enough for double set triggers,,, as opposed to the expected British style Fowler or musket trigger guard. Just using the guard as an example.
I think this all just goes to show that the "iron mounted Early Virginia" is pretty far off base.

 

[smo]

BN. I think a lot had to do with the materials they had on hand.. some using iron some brass. Back in the day speaking.

As too the current style Virgina guns it does seem as if Builders tend too use mostly steel hardware. I like them both!

In the early 1800's in the Carolina Schools, they used various materials in making guns.. some forged & some poured.

Realizing that these were manufactured long after the period of which we’re speaking... but these Guys were taught this at somewhere along the way.

Here's one of my favorites..

 

[Stophel]

I am questioning the logic behind the current fad of building guns referred to as "early Virginia" style and having a somewhat defining characteristic be the use of iron furniture.

There isn't much logic to it. It's purely wishful thinking. People desperately WANT pre-Revolutionary iron mounted Virginia rifles... so, they make them. Now, there are some iron mounted, presumably Virginia rifles that do exist, probably from the 1780's-90's, but extrapolating this back prior to 1770 is a stretch, I think.

 

[rich pierce]

I don’t know much about imported British gun furniture, especially iron mounts. The primary British-styled colonial guns made here were British styled fowling pieces but they were brass mounted. Common practice north and south in the colonial period was to import complete cheap trade guns, mid level fowlers, and militia quality muskets from England. Labor was cheaper there. But we are getting far from the original topic.

We can all reason all we want but all we have for pre-1770 Virginia colonial built rifles are a couple undated, unsigned, reasoned attributions (all with brass mounts). And one of those attributions was very likely wrong. The one on the colonial Williamsburg site listed as a very early Virginia rifle was most likely made by John Newcomer of Lancaster PA.

As Paul Simon wrote back in the day, “Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.”

 

[Stophel]

All that said, I think some of them look really good. I do like the all-brown look, and they can be quite charming, if made well.

 

[Zonie]

I am not surprised that no one has mentioned James T Butler, Jr. and James B. Whiskers, Old Bedford Village Press book "Long Rifles of Virginia" in this topic. (At least I didn't see mention of it.)

I just spent some time going completely thru my copy of that book and think some of the things I saw are worth mentioning.

First off, the authors did not mention that Virginia rifles typically having iron furniture. No iron butt plates, no iron trigger guards, no iron patchboxes, no iron nosecaps or thimbles.
If iron furniture was at all common, I would have expected they to say something about it because it is a large departure from the Pennsylvania guns most people think of when they talk about longrifles.

Although the pictures are all black and white, it is fairly easy to tell if the furniture is brass or iron.

If I don't poop out first, here is a listing of the rifles. bbp = brass butt plate, bpb = brass patch box, btg = brass trigger guard. If the picture doesn't clearly look like brass and is possibly iron, it will have a ? in it like ?bp, ?pb, ?tg FL = flintlock. PL = percussion

J.B. = FL, unknown bbp, bpb, btg
George Baker = PL, ?bp, bpb, ?tg
Christian Beck = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Christian Beck = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Christian Beck = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Christian Beck = PL, bbb, bpb, btg
G. Bogan = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Britton = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Bullard = FL, bbp, wood pb, ?tg
James Clark = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
James Clark = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Crummy = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Joseph Daniels Sr. = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Joseph Daniels Sr. = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Davidson = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Evick = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Evick = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
J. Fisher = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
William & Cyrus Fisher = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Lewis Ginger = ?bp, no pb, btg
Jacob Funk = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
George Glaze = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
J.J. Good = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
George Grandstaff ? = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
George Grandstaff = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Henry Harding = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Abraham Honaker = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Abraham Honaker = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Lauck, Winchester = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Simon Lauck ? = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Lauck, Winchester = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John or Simon Lauck, Winchester = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Lechner = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Jacob Lewis = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Jacob Lewis = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Liggett = FL, bbp, no pb, btg
William McClure = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Alexander McGilvray = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Alexander McGilvray = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Alexander McGilvray = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Nathaniel Oats (or Offutt) = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Painter = PL, bbp, no pb, btg
John Painter = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Reynolds = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Benjamin F. Shane = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Frederick Sheetz = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John or Henfy Sheetz = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Frederick Sheetz = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Jacob Sheetz = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Jacob Sheetz = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
John Jacob Sheetz = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Miller Sheetz = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Zebulon Sheetz = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
William Sink = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
G. W. Sites = ?L, bbp, bpb, btg
John Peter Sites = PL, bbp, b cap box, btg
William Sites = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Charles Spitzer ? = FL, bbp, no pb, btg
Henry Spitzer = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Henry Spitzer = FL, bbp, no pb, btg
William Spitzer = bbp, b cap box, btg
J. Thomas = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Henry Topper = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
George Young = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
George Young = FL, bbp, bpb, btg
Unsigned = FL, bbp, grease hole, btg
Christianburg, Montgomery County ? = FL, iron bp, iron pb, iron tg
Unsigned Hampshire County ? = PL, bbp, bpb, btg
Unsigned Wythe County? = FL, ?bp, ?pb, ?tg
Unsigned southwestern Virginia? = FL, no bp, no pb, btg

I left out a number of pistols that were included in the book.

After all of that, I would say an iron mounted Virginia rifle would be about as rare as hen's teeth but for the die hards that want to try to justify their iron mounted longrifles, who am I to say they are wrong?

 

[smo]

Zonie, were any dates given for the guns listed above? Thanks

 

[Zonie]

Zonie, were any dates given for the guns listed above? Thanks

I seem to recall one or two of them mentioned a possible date but most of them said nothing about it.

Based on the patchboxes I would say that most of the flintlocks were made in the 1780-1820 time frame. Only one of them had a wood patch box cover.

 

[smo]

Thanks