Original 18th century Virginia Rifle

[Nameless Hunter]

This has been a VERY interesting read for me (which prompted a search for additional information). I came across an article that I had not expected to find, about the severe lack of guns and ammunition in PA (of all places) during the F&I War and at the start of the AWI.
https://allthingsliberty.com/2014/04/a-want-of-arms-in-pennsylvania/

 

[smo]

It rang a bell with me as something I’d read before about Morgan’s riflemen heading to Boston during the Revolutionary War. They must have been a sight to see!

That statement is in the link Dave posted above...

 

[rich pierce]

The “early Virginia” kit and complete gun offerings are often furnished with iron mounts because A) the House brothers and folks who work in the Woodbury school like to forge iron mounts and like the look; B) folks are used to thinking of Southern rifles as iron mounted because of very much later Tennessee and North Carolina “Southern mountain rifles”; and C) many believe, against all evidence to the contrary, that “brass was too shiny for real hunters to use.”

Then another unsupportable argument is that “iron was plentiful and brass expensive there.” Yet somehow they obtained afforded imported locks and even barrels.....(I am talking 1700s rifles here).

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Also, forged iron hardware is a "one-off" product unless the blacksmith is set up for production with dies and swedges and an army of filers to reproduce the items. Casting brass mounts is simpler, easier to reproduce, and less time consuming. In addition, you can melt and reuse old parts very efficiently. During the colonial period, most barrels and locks and much of the hardware was imported and gun makers were largely assemblers like us or as the British called them, "setter uppers". In that British parlance, the last guy in the chain who finally attached all the parts was sometimes known as the "screwer upper".

dave

 

[Brokennock]

Hi,
Also, forged iron hardware is a "one-off" product unless the blacksmith is set up for production with dies and swedges and an army of filers to reproduce the items. Casting brass mounts is simpler, easier to reproduce, and less time consuming. In addition, you can melt and reuse old parts very efficiently. During the colonial period, most barrels and locks and much of the hardware was imported and gun makers were largely assemblers like us or as the British called them, "setter uppers". In that British parlance, the last guy in the chain who finally attached all the parts was sometimes known as the "screwer upper".

dave

This is kind of along the lines I was thinking. If you have to buy steel furniture imported from England, and they don't have much of a rifle culture to produce rifle style trigger guards and such, but you can more easily cast your own brass parts, it doesn't make sense for these early guns to be furnished in iron/steel. Regardless of where they are from.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Brokennock,
There certainly would be iron hardware exported from England but steel would be rare. In the mid-18th century it was still expensive to make steel and only in small quantities. Steel was as expensive until the Bessemer process was invented in the mid 19th century.

dave

 

[smo]

Great discussion Guys, One question I have... misc. parts & barrels imported from England during these times.

Did the barrels carry proof marks?

 

[dave_person]

Great discussion Guys, One question I have... misc. parts & barrels imported from England during these times.

Did the barrels carry proof marks?

Hi,
That is a good question because I am sure he better quality barrels were proofed and marked but I am not sure cheaper trade gun barrels were.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

I’m not up to speed on proofing and proof marks on rifle barrels from Germanic countries. There are sometimes what I take to be makers marks like a pair of shears for example.

 

[smo]

Interesting....Thanks for the reply.

I “assumed “ anything “gun” related would have been proof tested, even if it was for export.

From what I understand, most early Gunsmiths took great pride in their work. At least that seems too show in later styles/schools.

A Friend of mine , that lives in Virginia just sent me this...

He says , It’s from the Gunsmiths of Virginia...

I found this interesting as well.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Smo,
My suspicion is that he had 1,619 lbs of iron and then a much smaller amount of steel but the metal is easily mislabeled in many documents. However, if accurate and it was all steel, it would represent quite a tidy sum. Steel was about 3-4 pounds sterling per 100 lbs weight so his inventory of steel would amount to 60-80 pounds sterling at a time when a family could live on 40 pounds annually and you were considered well off with an income of 100 pounds. Iron, even the high quality imports from Sweden cost about 15 pounds per ton or 4 to 5 times less than steel. It also likely cost more to fabricate parts from steel compared to iron because the iron works and files much more easily. However, you had to have steel for springs and soles for frizzens.

dave

 

[smo]

Thanks Dave, what was more interesting too me was the it says he had tools,rods and barrels.... and that he passed away in 1750.

Which would put his gun work sometime earlier.

Apparently he was located in the Henrico County area , just outside of Richmond.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Interesting....Thanks for the reply.

I “assumed “ anything “gun” related would have been proof tested, even if it was for export.

From what I understand, most early Gunsmiths took great pride in their work. At least that seems too show in later styles/schools.

A Friend of mine , that lives in Virginia just sent me this...

He says , It’s from the Gunsmiths of Virginia...

I found this interesting as well.

View attachment 24623

I'd like to see the inventory as written. Fox was a blacksmith who was in Fredricksburg VA

 

[smo]

I'd like to see the inventory as written. Fox was a blacksmith who was in Fredricksburg VA

Capt James.... I'm with you, I would like too see it as well.
However I don't own a copy of the book. Gunsmiths of Virgina..

He mentioned others as well, and thier inventories.

John Fox,being the earliest he found.

It still doesn't tie too any particular gun,that I'm aware of.

 

[Stophel]

I’m not up to speed on proofing and proof marks on rifle barrels from Germanic countries. There are sometimes what I take to be makers marks like a pair of shears for example.

While some states may have had proof laws, there are none that I know of. I have yet to see or hear of a proof mark on any German 18th century gun barrel. Most are probably completely unmarked, with only maker's marks/signatures on the rest.

 

[smo]

I'd like to see the inventory as written. Fox was a blacksmith who was in Fredricksburg VA

Sorry for the mis quote... Fredericksburg is correct instead of Richmond.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Sorry for the mis quote... Fredericksburg is correct instead of Richmond.

And as discussed, I have heard that Geddy may have trained with Fox but I dont know who I heard that from or even if there is any documentation to support it.

 

[Brokennock]

Interesting....Thanks for the reply.

I “assumed “ anything “gun” related would have been proof tested, even if it was for export.

From what I understand, most early Gunsmiths took great pride in their work. At least that seems too show in later styles/schools.

A Friend of mine , that lives in Virginia just sent me this...

He says , It’s from the Gunsmiths of Virginia...

I found this interesting as well.

View attachment 24623

Thank you for this. Very interesting.

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Brokennock,
There certainly would be iron hardware exported from England but steel would be rare. In the mid-18th century it was still expensive to make steel and only in small quantities. Steel was as expensive until the Bessemer process was invented in the mid 19th century.

dave

Thank you for the reply. I was basicly using "iron/steel" more in the sense that they would have used iron then, but our contemporary attempts at similar guns are done with steel.

Regarding the imported British gun furniture, part of what I was driving at is the question if the British would have been casting, or forging, iron gun furniture of rifle style? Why would a British gun parts maker be making German style rifle parts? And, then exporting them to Virginia colony?

 

[Stophel]

I have no idea where this is going now.... British made iron gun mounts in German style imported to America.....