Ottoman Guns

[JBrandon]

Thank you Cyten for more good photos. And your points about difficulty of documentation and trade/movement of equipment well taken.
Silahlik holster ought to be related to Turkish silah = weapon, so silahlik = for weapons, just as kuburluk = for pistols.

 

[rickystl]

Speaking of Ottoman guns, here is an interesting one. It's a smooth bore and takes on a more Western flavor with it's stock and traditional style flintlock. There are tiny traces that the barrel was once blued. The barrel bands and butt plate have evidence they were originally treated to a clorsonne enamel coating, usually only seen on Caucasian gun barrel bands. The simple trade lock may be a period replacement as the vent hole does not line up exactly.

Something else I've noticed with these guns. Even well made and decorated, many of these guns show up with just mediocre lock inletting. Always found this curious.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Ricky, I've only seen this type of gun with the western style flintlock and have heard it being referred to as "Rumelian" but unsure of how accurate that description is. You have all the great stuff that I cannot find! Is it rifled or smoothbore?

Here is a photo from the 1870's by Felix Bonfils which he has just titled "Bergers". I have seen at least one photo of this "Rumelian" gun in the hands of a Greek warrior as well

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks for the photo. Much better than the one I have. Rumelian ? Yes, maybe. That's as good a guess as any. I've never really known. The raised carving on the butt stock and wrist area makes me want to speculate both guns were made in the same shop (?) Of course I have no idea. LOL But notice the general profiles are identical. The carvings and engravings are generic, so don't really give a clue as to origin. Here's some additional pics...

Rick

 

[cyten]

So much work in that stock!

Here is a display from a museum in Turkey.

And a collection of Shishane breech designs from examples that were all dated from the 18th century

And a very odd percussion conversion!

 

[NorthFork]

Holy cow @Rudyard !

 

[Rudyard]

'Reverend Bovine! ' @Rudyard! I Sorry fail to get it. But I do get the pics Cyten posted . The one put to percussion is particularly intresting as most all the tons of recovered barrels had been converted by the rather irreverant hands of rough blacksmiths in this way. These barrels & Belgium export double rifles of low quality out of Liege & bearing the Persian Snow Lion ,with raised sword from memory , I have the parts of one plus he seemed to get lots of Werndle BLs in his searching .Though the story is He didn't so much want the barrels or the other such like but had to take the lot as he was really after Persian Artillery Lugers (Some sort of breach loader ) from police stations in Kurdistan & possibley other regions more into Iran that had been altered to percussion by a curious 'side plug' that had the' Bar' as part of it plus some had swing over saftey covers . The Major was the classic old style Major had a shop in Steeple Bumpsted and if you called he'd be in the local pub. But he had a wonderful collection and wrote a lot for various magazines such as the UK 'Shooting Times' &' Guns Review '. The barrels where a mix ,he rated them on condition & whether rifled or smooth at 2 or 3 pounds your choice .Some Wonderfull barrels chisleled inlayed Damascus beuties A boon to such as we gun buffs & Iv'e made numbers of guns up from them If any one started my interest in Islamic arms it was the Major . In terms of date ide say about 1963 or so or He's gone now of course Ide be about 18 I think I later travelled through Turkey into Persia & had a rough time with annoying Kurds but they are not typical of Islamic lands where I useually got on fine , I was once earlier crossing the Sahara to Mali & hitching down from I think Abadla to reach Adrar where convoys formed to run the 5 or so days to Gao I get a lift with locals who explained how they made mines to blow up French out posts They had been at War with France , Anyway they drop me at some remote town. Never saw it it was dark at some Pere Blaunch missionary probably figured he would
be " kif kif "with such as I . But He wouldn't have a bar of it ' " No No its not a youth hostle ' ' ' ' Not even to kip inside the compound ? "NO !. So I walk out of town to the main road & head south till spotting a Whad ? dry riverlet I figured be of out of sight So I go up find a spot noticing a wire fence .Next morning I see the fence goes for miles it was a Mine field I found out . Nice of the Pere Blaunch not to tell me about it . I was 20 years old and alone they could have slit my throat for 6 pence but they have a code of aiding a traveller . Similar thing in Gao . Though no mine field at least. I camped in a dug out by the Niger river the crocs or snakes didn't get me but the Moskitos did. 140 mile to Timbuctou but just a 'Piste 'rude road & zero traffic that all next day before the onset of hellacious belly acke.. Allways regreted not getting to Timbuctou . "I will follow you to the ends of the earth ! Even unto Timbuctou !'' Don't recall who said that but sounds dramatic. It wasn't Mungo Park he did get there . Sorry to ramble a bit Of topic but some seem to like that . Pic if I can send it of of the Persian market double rifle parts besides the Snow Lion we see V Gulikers. Maquinay Rh lock & Liege 1868 maybe its 1888 on the Left.Got the 58 ish cal brl's but need freshing way too 'Smoky'
Regards Rudyard
Pics later

 

[rickystl]

Yes, imagine how long it must have taken to carve just that one stock.

Thanks again for these latest photos. Notice with these Ottoman style long guns their common design of a fixed, peep-style rear sight mounted at the far rear of the breech area. This seems to be a common practice with Eastern gun makers from the period. They obviously viewed shoulder arms as a longer range weapon, even in carbine length. I've seen some of these rear sights forged with the breech plug itself. Others forged at the rear of the barrel. Based on remaining examples, there seems just as many were made as smooth bore versus rifled barrels. Guess it depended on what the owner's preference.

I've read that the availability and cost of percussion caps in these regions made the common use of percussion locks impractical. This makes sense since the vast majority of surviving specimens are in flint configuration. So we only occasionally see a percussion gun. Hard to believe the flint ignition continued all the way through at least the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. That may also account of why there are so many of these guns remaining today.

What is also common, whether Eastern or Western cultures, the best made guns seemed to get the best care by it's owners.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here are 3 pistols from the period. The first two, while decorated, are generic styled pistols likely made at one of the many shops in the Balkan regions. While stock and lock styles varied greatly, the Mid-18th Century French stock pattern seemed especially popular. These two pistols have new Hoyt steel liners in .55 caliber for shooting.

The third, single pistol, has evidence that it could have been made by an actual Turkish gunsmith. It's in working condition, but not a shooter. Just in my collection.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

An period Ottoman style bandoleer for carrying pre-measured powder charges. Apparently, these were quite common.

Also, a period powder measure, still in good working condition.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

The measure....

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rick. While the one featured percussion Shishone seems uncommon in many regions .Most All the barrels recovered ? from Kurdistan area or beyound by Major Corry have been alterered roughly to percussion . just one Indian Matchlock un fitted presume unmade up to a gun was in the few I bought from him or later from others who bought some but never used them , So in the areas he Major Corry gathered all the great quantity of barrels the cap conversion might or was widely used perhaps circa 1900 no idea . Ime going by surmise & best evidence but the full story is now unlikley to emerge though the barrels them selves speak volumes (If you can do that & still be mute !) How do you pronounce Shishone ? shish - own - y , is my guess . The humped & pierced or some open top sights Shearbakar? are practicle you just take what sight you reckon the range is just allowing the p o a as you hope he gun will hit .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

Ricky, that Turkish pistol is very interesting, I have never seen the rozetki used in pistols And as for that bandolier, the tubes look like they have a very wide diameter, any measurement on the size of a ball that would fit? In some of the photos I've posted i wonder if they are carrying something like this, for instance:

This Armenian appears to have your type of bandolier next to his palaska cartridge box.

 

[cyten]

Dear Rick. While the one featured percussion Shishone seems uncommon in many regions .Most All the barrels recovered ? from Kurdistan area or beyound by Major Corry have been alterered roughly to percussion . just one Indian Matchlock un fitted presume unmade up to a gun was in the few I bought from him or later from others who bought some but never used them , So in the areas he Major Corry gathered all the great quantity of barrels the cap conversion might or was widely used perhaps circa 1900 no idea . Ime going by surmise & best evidence but the full story is now unlikley to emerge though the barrels them selves speak volumes (If you can do that & still be mute !) How do you pronounce Shishone ? shish - own - y , is my guess . The humped & pierced or some open top sights Shearbakar? are practicle you just take what sight you reckon the range is just allowing the p o a as you hope he gun will hit .
Regards Rudyard

Rudyard, I believe the Persian & Ottoman guns are in different worlds. I'm not familiar with Persian history much, perhaps there was a lot of trade with the British Raj area? But I know in the Ottoman Empire it was forbidden for Christians to own firearms (and even ride horses at one point) So, by the time percussion guns were popular, getting percussion caps would have been much more difficult and even being caught with them could be a heavy penalty, whereas having some rocks that just so happen to make sparks would be fine and are easy to source. My best guess at least.

As to the pronunciation of Shishane, in Turkish it is spelled Şişhane which would make the pronunciation SHE-SHAH-NAY.

Not that the Shishane was the only kind of Ottoman gun. It is said that the gun trade came to the Balkans via Italy. At first with entire guns but then just barrels being smuggled through Herzegovina when Christian subjects were banned from having arms. You can see the evolution of the guns from Italian guns (first picture) to the Bosnia-Herzegovinian Dzeferdar (2nd & 3rd) to the Albanian Tancica/Arnautka (4th) to the Greek Kariofili (5th)

Major gunmaking centers I know of were: Herceg Novi (Bosnia) for the Dzeferdar, Kotor (Montenegro) Prizren (Kosovo) and Shkoder (Albania) for the Tancica, Istanbul (Turkey) and Sliven (Bulgaria) for the Shishane

 

[rickystl]

Dear Rick. While the one featured percussion Shishone seems uncommon in many regions .Most All the barrels recovered ? from Kurdistan area or beyound by Major Corry have been alterered roughly to percussion . just one Indian Matchlock un fitted presume unmade up to a gun was in the few I bought from him or later from others who bought some but never used them , So in the areas he Major Corry gathered all the great quantity of barrels the cap conversion might or was widely used perhaps circa 1900 no idea . Ime going by surmise & best evidence but the full story is now unlikley to emerge though the barrels them selves speak volumes (If you can do that & still be mute !) How do you pronounce Shishone ? shish - own - y , is my guess . The humped & pierced or some open top sights Shearbakar? are practicle you just take what sight you reckon the range is just allowing the p o a as you hope he gun will hit .
Regards Rudyard

Hi Rudyard

That most of those surplus barrels turned up to be converted for percussion, is certainly a mystery. Possibly those barrels were converted to percussion with the intent for resale to the locals ? By the late 19th Century there were more BPC rifles in use in various areas, such as the Egyptian pattern rolling block and Martini rifles. Possibly, for a period, the availability of percussion caps was more readily available ? By 1900 the West was already a decade into the smokeless powder era. But much of the regions under discussion here moved at a much slower pace. Of course, I'm just speculating with the barrels.

I pronounce Sishane the same as Cyten does. For Ottoman shoulder guns, I use the term Sishane for guns with a rifled barrel, and Tufuk for guns with a smooth bore barrel. But the two terms are often used interchangeably with collectors and students.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

"Ricky, that Turkish pistol is very interesting, I have never seen the rozetki used in pistols And as for that bandolier, the tubes look like they have a very wide diameter, any measurement on the size of a ball that would fit? In some of the photos I've posted i wonder if they are carrying something like this, for instance:"

"This Armenian appears to have your type of bandolier next to his palaska cartridge box."

Hi Cyten

It is the only pistol I've seen that is fully decorated with rozetki from grip to muzzle. That, along with the trigger guard (with it's two half-moons) and the side plate all look very Ottoman/Turk to me.

The bandoleer still retains it's buckle, but the rest of the belt is missing. The wood containers were just made to carry pre-measured powder charges - only. No ball. Similar to the gazari and apostle containers. It would seem, more often used with the shoulder arms.
The bandoleer could easily be worn around the waist or over the shoulder.

I've always viewed the palaska being of more common use with pistols while on horseback. They would contain 4-5 (depending on caliber) pre-made cartridges (pre-measured powder, ball, all inside a twisted paper shell) for ready use in reloading. There is only small historical evidence for this, but some none the less. I do know that 4-5 of these cartridges do fit in these containers perfectly. I've tried this myself. You might notice the palaskas - wheather Ottoman or Greek, etc. - are all the same size, shape, and width.

The warrior in the photo: That pouch does indeed look like it could be one of these bandoleer/pouches. Hard to tell in the photo. That small container next to it looks more like one of those used to hold one of those miniature copies of the Koran. They were always square shaped, and a bit more narrow in width. They are often confused with palaskas.

Some additional photos of that pistol:

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Fascinating post and pictures ... thanks to Cyten, RickyStL and Rudyard!

Rick, a shop near me has a pistol like the 3rd one you show above, that (to me) looks like an English 'Sea Service' pistol somewhat in profile. PM me if you want me to get pictures and price.

 

[rickystl]

Fascinating post and pictures ... thanks to Cyten, RickyStL and Rudyard!

Rick, a shop near me has a pistol like the 3rd one you show above, that (to me) looks like an English 'Sea Service' pistol somewhat in profile. PM me if you want me to get pictures and price.

Hi Flint

YES!! It's been a fun Thread for sure. Thanks for the offer. But since I retired at the beginning of this year, I haven't been making any purchases. I have so much stuff that needs cataloged and worked on it will keep me busy for a few years. LOL.

Those pistols, loosely referred to as kubur (horse) pistols never followed any specific pattern. Would not be unusual to find one with an English stock profile, a French lock, and an Italian barrel. With a locally made trigger guard. Barrels, locks, and some hardware were often imports from various European countries (especially Italy), and assembled and decorated for local tastes. The market for these parts was enormous, and lasted for many years. And likely the reason so many of these pistols still exist today.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Speaking of barrels, here is a barrel (only) from my collection. Rudyard may find this (and the story) especially interesting.

A few years ago, I purchased this barrel from a retiring dealer that had no idea of it's past. Just described to me as a long musket barrel for a flintlock. And offered it VERY CHEAP. So I bought it on a whim. When I received the barrel, it was completely covered with a thin, hardened layer of dust/dirt that looked like the barrel had been sitting in a corner collecting dust for decades. So, I gathered my gun oil, oooo steel wool, and rags and started cleaning. You can only imagine my expression at what I found after cleaning off all those years of grime. LOL

The barrel is an early pattern smooth bore, octagon to round, with a fast taper from the breech, and 46" long (less the breech plug). No swell at the muzzle, and appears perfectly straight, not bent. The entire top of the barrel, from breech plug to muzzle is covered in silver overlay with a script in Arabic. The three bare sections I assume is where the barrel bands were fitted. The breech area has numerous maker and location stamps, but only a trace of the gold inlays remain. The lower, right-hand flat is signed by the maker and location. It was traced that the barrel maker worked in Italy during the late 17th Century. The bore (about .62 caliber) appears to be in good enough condition to be reused today with some further cleaning.
It's possible the barrel was imported, with the silver overlay added later, by locals. But it could have just as easily been made complete for the Ottoman market and exported. The quality of the silver overlay certainly appears to be of European standards.

The dirt/grime had covered up all the silver, breech stamps, and signature. LOL Here are some pics:

Rick

 

[rickystl]

More pics....