P53 - exercise in futility...

[TFoley]

mornin', all. Great frustration here, and I'm hoping that with the application of the oft-times demonstrated wisdom on these pages that we can sort out a pal and his original P53.

Y'see, over here in not so-Merry Olde England, we have to undertake an official 'certificate of competence' test before we are allowed to shoot at the NRA Shooting Centre - Bisley - so that the NRA there can see that we are not a bunch of ignorant yahoos who shoot stuff off in all directions. This applies to every calibre imaginable, and you can understand that some of us are necessarily a mite peeved about this necessity.

Still, 'G' had to show 'good shooting practice' and 'adequate ability to produce a group' to the senior club RCO to get his certificate, and as a shooter for many years with BP he thought it would be a breeze.

What it was, was a disaster.

Service load of 2.5 drams/68gr of FFg.

Rapine hollow-base Minie, shot many times before.

Consistent loading technique [he has been shooting this particular gun for about 20 years or so] and the same batch/lot/can of powder we were both using a couple of weeks ago in our .58's.

Result - one shot on the four by two target backing at 100m - out of five shots. The others are somewhere in the safe area in rural Northamptonshire......

Ideas, please, and I promise I'll listen to more or less anything sensible.

I've run out of ideas now, I have to say, and I've been shooting this kind of thing since the late 1960's.

TIA

tac

 

[ResearchPress]

No disrespect intended... but does your friend normally shoot competition? If you are satisfied that loading etc was OK, then I would consider the shooter. If he was subject to a test and does not normally shoot in competition, then maybe nerves just got the better of him?

Incidentally, a 'test' is not the only means of gaining a Shooter Certification Card. For instance if your friend is a member of the NRA and has recorded a score in NRA competition (eg. Imperial Historic Arms Meeting or Trafalgar Meeting) that would suffice. For MLAGB members, having recorded a score in an NRA or MLAGB competition is adequate.

NRA Certification - http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/certification/certification.asp

David

 

[zampilot]

Might his sights moved, been bumped sideways?
Could you tell where the other shots passed the target board?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Is the bore leaded-up? Minnies and Maxi's are practically the same animal, save for the back end/skirt issues. My son and I shoot a lot of Maxi's, and do quite well with them, but you must maintain vigilance: When my rifle goes and makes a shotgun pattern, I do two things: 1. I scrub the bore with a lead remover and a good new brush. For a .58, I'd use a 20 ga. shotgun brush and make use of the over-size bristles that will dig the lead out of that rifling! 2. Change the nipple if it's worn-out! A nipple with erosion will also make a shotgun pattern at that range!

If I can think of anything else that hasn't been posted yet by others, I'll chime back in.....

Dave
Fellow Hurler of huge chunks of hot lead :haha:

 

[mykeal]

tac - I know you asked for help with your friend's shooting problem, and I'm not actually going to offer any, so maybe you want to just pass this one up, but...

I lived in Edingurgh for several years, which has admittedly given me a Scot's view of things English (eg. not flattering, for those not familiar with the incident at Culloden in '46). Let's see if I have this right: The NRA in England requires that one pass a test in order to shoot at their range. The test is conducted at 100 meters. One is expected to arrive with a shooting implement of your own choice which has been prepared for that distance (ie, 'sighted in') and with which you are familiar. You are not allowed to use the range to accomplish either of those two prerequisites at their range, since you must pass the test first in order to use the range at all.

Am I correct then, in inferring that the NRA in England takes the view that they don't wish to be bothered with providing the opportunity (facility, training, etc.) for one to become an accomplished shootist - that they're only interested in you after you've made that grade on your own and they've tested your skills?

Maybe my tenure in the highlands has affected my reasoning? Or maybe it was that deep fried Mars bar...

Sorry, I wish I could help, but it's hard to focus when trying to understand English logic. I'll retire now, to a whiff of the peat in my glass.

 

[Stayangry]

Hi Mykeal,

I am also a British shooter and a member of the British NRA.

The need for certification at Bisley is extremely irritating, but I feel the need to weigh in on the NRA's side on this issue.

The problem is that the NRA ranges share "danger areas" with the military ranges nearby.

A few years ago, some bullets fired by the military escaped from the danger areas and the military instigated changes to their procedures to prevent this.

At the same time, they decided to block civilian shooters from sharing their danger areas which would have meant a total shutdown of civilian activity at Bisley, the world capital of rifle shooting.

The NRA then moved fast to negotiate with the military to instigate similar safety procedures and the certification scheme was the result.

Irritating and inconvenient certainly, but actually something of a triumph, for which the NRA should be congratulated.

And yes, the NRA will support new shooters to help them get their certification - after all, they want to encourage people to join the sport, not leave it.

James

 

[No Grease]

So how did the British military remedy their inadequate sdz(surface danger zone)? :hmm:

 

[nkbj]

But then, being a life member for so long that they twice figured I'd died and stopped sending my magazine, that sounds to me exactly like another "NRA victory". Compromising your rights is their gravy. :rotf:

 

[ResearchPress]

See the link I provided above if you need to read more about the requirements.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

....Compromising your rights is their gravy.

Please explain the above.

The NRA(GB) have obtained an agreement with the Ministry of Defence for a Safe Shooting System for civilian use of MoD Ranges by clubs affiliated to the NRA.

David

 

[BrownBear]

How does the rifle perform at 50m? The difference may tell you a lot, whether it's shooter error or load deficiency.

I find the move from 50 to 100 to be quite a leap, both for the shooter and the load. Loads that perform well closer sometimes perform poorly as range stretches. And small sighting errors and other failures in techniques have much greater effect at 100 than at 50.

 

[Stayangry]

Oh, hi David, didn't know you were on this forum too!

I can't help agreeing with the other poster - as a sporting organisation, the UK NRA is exemplary, but as a political organisation it sucks badly, as demonstrated by their decisions to rollover before our draconian firearms legislation.

This is why I have also joined the Sportsmans Association which is much more in tune with my outlook - no compromise on gun rights!

Hopefully the next election will see our current criminal rulers deposed (and, preferably, impeached and executed for treason), but I'm not counting my chickens yet.

James

 

[TFoley]

Thanks for the input, David. I should have pointed out that G is a founder member of the 'Diehards' re-enactment group, with many years experience in shooting in both clubs, and at public displays all over the world, including Rorke's Drift!

I should also tell you that the had just qualified for his certificate with a .22, .223, .303 and .308, and was finishing up the day with the P53.

I don't think he has a nerve in him.

Best

tac

PS - had a great visit with the people on the MLAGB stand at Newark. I got as though I was a real person.

 

[TFoley]

How does the rifle perform at 50m?

Dunno, to tell the truth, since we don't usually shoot a .577/58cal anything at 50 yards. At our local range [100 yards] G is a good shooter - 4" groups are usual. Up to 600 yards with the .577 is what we usually shoot - Wedgenock and Bisley.

We could try it tomorrow, I 'spose, but shooting so close with such a calibre will need me to look at the distance/calibre clearance we have for our ranges. Usually 50yds/m is the reserve of .22RF and lever-action rifle carbine calibres up to .44Mag.
tac

 

[poordevil]

As G is an experanced shooter, what does he think the problem is?

 

[TFoley]

As G is an experanced shooter, what does he think the problem is?

Well, Sir - he is as puzzled as I am, else he wouldn't have agreed to me posting the query here and risking the pair of us look like a couple of patooties. As I noted, the piece was shooting all shots into about 4" a couple weeks ago, now it won't hit the proverbial outhouse door.

Might it be the nipple? Uneven ignition as a result? I'll take a new one with me tomorrow and see it it makes any difference.

Thanks for all the suggestions anyhow, folks - I'll let you know what is going on tomorrow night, OK?

tac

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Remember to give that bore a good scrubbing with lead remover and a brush :wink: .

Here's hoping that it settles-down and comes back into the paper!

Dave

 

[poordevil]

What bullet is he shooting? I shoot the smooth sided Prichett out of my Musketoon. It shoots well naked and just slightly better paper patched.

I mold my own, and many years ago I was in a hurry to go with friends and molded a batch and did not want to put the warm/hot bullet in the plastic ctg. as I diped them in lube with the bullet nose down in the ctg. So I quenched them in cool water. It must have Hardened them, as they appeared not to expaned the skirt nor took the rifling. It was very obvious how poorly it shot. Maybe his lead was too hard or got handled incorrectly?

P

ps...just reread that he shoots the Rapine bullet. So could the lead be questionible?

 

[mykeal]

Stayangry, thanks for your clearing that up. I just knew there was a story there somewhere. I never did get down to Bisley to do any shooting. I spent most of my free time trying to fathom the civilian air pilot's rules; I succeeded, but just barely.

 

[Zonie]

"...I should also tell you that the had just qualified for his certificate with a .22, .223, .303 and .308, and was finishing up the day with the P53."
_____________

If G is as good as you say he is, and if he has been shooting the Enfield accurately up until a few weeks ago I will suggest that his qualifying with four different rifles before he started shooting the Enfield is the problem.
Firing multiple shots with the .303 and .308 can and does take something out of the best of us.

I suspect that after a through cleaning of his gun and a nights rest he will be back to his previous form and have no problem hitting the target repeatedly.