Patched Roundball

[Mongo40]

Was having a talk with my brother lastnight an he told me he doesn't use a patch with his roundballs, that he just shoves the lead balls down the barrell, an asked me why he needs one that the mountain men didn't use no patch,,, so help me out here as i didn't have a good answer other than thats how I have always done it, I didn't answer him yet on it but was thinking; gases escaping around ball in rifle groves hurting the velocity of it, leading the barrel up, tighter fit an filling the rifling in, but really don't know,,,,,
Thanks

 

[Macon Due]

I believe that unless he is hammering the ball down the barrel he is having a gas loss around the ball as well as no lube on the ball which I would think will lead to a leading problem.On top of this is the fact that if the ball is loose enough to 'push' down the barrel,it could move back up the bore in carrying the rifle and become a bore obstruction and damage the rifle and injure him when he fires. I'm thinking if it was My brother I'd attempt to talk him out of this!
Macon

 

[123.DieselBenz]

A patch will lube the bore, and also the lube will help keep the fouling soft, besides sealing the gases in the bore.

 

[BrownBear]

Was having a talk with my brother lastnight an he told me he doesn't use a patch with his roundballs, that he just shoves the lead balls down the barrell, an asked me why he needs one that the mountain men didn't use no patch,,, so help me out here as i didn't have a good answer other than thats how I have always done it, I didn't answer him yet on it but was thinking; gases escaping around ball in rifle groves hurting the velocity of it, leading the barrel up, tighter fit an filling the rifling in, but really don't know,,,,,
Thanks

I had to do that once when I needed a followup shot on a deer, but had no patching in my bag. :redface:

Easy summary? Ptooey. :barf:

 

[Bill Hall]

Same here Brown Bear, once on a deer and another time on an elk. Recovered the ball both times, and it was obvious by the lack of penetration, and the lack of damage to the ball, that there was a serious loss in velocity.

If your brother is using something for a wad behind the ball, the loss in velocity won't be too bad, but the accuracy is going to suffer. If you can talk him into trying lubed patches around his ball, he would think he had a new gun. Or maybe go with him to the range and shoot it for him with patched ball, just to show him how small his groups could be. Bill

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Never heard the mountainmen didn't use patches. Now yes, as an emergency measure you can skip the patch for a few shots if you're being over run by Bugs Boys but indeed the bore will foul very quickly, both powder and lead fouling and accuracy will be pretty hopeless. There is also the issue raised my Macon Due of a loose ball rolling part way up the bore.
You should convince your brother that what he is doing is foolish and potentially dangerous. There are good reasons why the rifle ball has been patched for at least the past 400 years.

 

[Semisane]

Mongo, you might want to show him this from the Thompson Center manual.

It's from the manual "Shooting TC Side Lock Black Powder Guns" which can be seen in PDF format at this link. http://www.tcarms.com/manuals/

 

[Black horse]

I guess I am just a rebel. The balls fit fairly tight with out a patch so no worries about it rolling half way down the barrel.
I suppose if I was doing a lot of shooting a patch would help with fouling but I am hunting so only one possibly 2 shots before cleaning.
I doesnt affect accuracy and penetration was fine.
Next disscusion point please.
This guy didnt complain about no patch last night. The shot was approximatley 80 yards, I aimed at center right shoulder and hit center right shoulder.

 

[BrownBear]

What are you ball and more sizes? I'm guessing you have to use your ramrod to seat the ball, so it must be a pretty close fit.

I'm not asking to be critical, rather just trying to learn. I have read accounts of guys "in the day" skipping the patch when they were loading fast and running hard.

 

[Black horse]

You know what, I dont know what the size of the ball is.
The rifle is a Lyman GPR 54 caliber I built from a kit years ago. I also bought a round ball mold at the same time and honestly dont know the diameter. I will look at the mold and see if it says anything. I noticed the ball fit tight and yes I have to use the ramrod to push the ball down the barrel, otherwise I wouldnt shoot it that way.
Like I said, it doesnt seem to affect accuracy or power but I am sure some technical equipment would prove me wrong.

 

[Trench]

It must be tight enough for the lands to cut in to the ball. Very interesting. I do recall reading that very early Germanic rifle hunters pushed a bore-sized ball down their rifles without a patch.

What kind of group do you get out to 100 yards?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I do recall reading that very early Germanic rifle hunters pushed a bore-sized ball down their rifles without a patch.

Some did but it was not a widespread practice. There were some (not many) very large bore Jaegers that took a ball pounded down the bore which had very-very deep rifling.
However, very large bores on all Jaegers is a misconception, most were in the .50-.54 range. With only the small exception mentioned, virtually all others used a patched round ball.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

So do you existence any leading in the barrel?

 

[50cal.cliff]

You know what, I dont know what the size of the ball is.
The rifle is a Lyman GPR 54 caliber I built from a kit years ago. I also bought a round ball mold at the same time and honestly dont know the diameter. I will look at the mold and see if it says anything. I noticed the ball fit tight and yes I have to use the ramrod to push the ball down the barrel, otherwise I wouldnt shoot it that way.
Like I said, it doesnt seem to affect accuracy or power but I am sure some technical equipment would prove me wrong.

:shake: This goes back to that ole saying, you can lead a horse to water but that doesn't mean you can make him drink!

Unless you are pounding that lead ball tight enough to seal on the rifling there is no way you are not getting blow by. With blow by you are losing compression, which translates to speed and penetration.
And personally I don't care who believes that. It just takes a little common sense in thinking out the actual process that goes on in a BP ignition.

When the cap goes off or the flint strikes the pan ignition of the powder causes it too ignite. Without some compression it would just burn the powder and not expel the projectile (in this case the ball. If you are not using a wad on top of the powder it is a wonder you get enough compression to get any kind of accuracy and/or penetration.

Now due to the pic I must say it must be working for you but I think you would be shocked to take it to the range and try this. Shoot two, five shot groups your way through a chronograph, using your normal cleaning or wiping procedure. Check the speed and check your accuracy.

Then shoot two more five shot groups with a patch,using your normal cleaning or wiping procedure.. I will almost guarantee you will be shocked at the difference in speed and accuracy change.

And I will say this let me set this scenario up for you. You get hold of a slightly undersized ball you may still have to use a ramrod to get it down the barrel due to some fouling. Now lets say the barrel is not fouled as bad at the charge. You carry the rifle and the ball since it is not patched moves back off the charge. Now when you touch that charge off you have potentially created a bomb. The ignition of that charge begins and causes its expansion and is suddenly stopped by the ball. You will bulge or blow a barrel!

 

[wjgonzalez]

The patch engages the rifling, and imparts the spin to the round ball. If there is no patch, there is going to be little or no spin to the ball, affecting accuracy.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The patch engages the rifling, and imparts the spin to the round ball. If there is no patch, there is going to be little or no spin to the ball, affecting accuracy.

You know that and the rest of us know that. But, I have a feeling Black Horse doesn't want to hear it. If it works for him, that's fine.
BTW, years ago I tried a Maxi Ball in my TC 'hawken'. Went down hard. Day got warm, it slid forward almost out of the barrel. Fortunately, I am a safety nut and checked with the rod before shooting. Never again tried 'bullet' thingys in a ml.

 

[tg]

"an asked me why he needs one that the mountain men didn't use no patch,,, '

I think most here would like to book mark the period reference that supports that theory, it is pretty wel,accepted that a PRB offers better accuracy with little leading of the bore, the Mt. Man thing is very interesting though, I am sure that occasionaly they would use a plain ball but to say they did not use a patch in their rifles as the norm is rather interesting from a historical viewpoint, sounds like the type of history lesson that starts around the campfire with a bottle of Scotch and a vivid imagination

 

[necchi]

If ya look our no patch wonder shooter has made two posts in the last two years.
He sure waited long enough to stir the pot. :idunno:

 

[Rifleman1776]

If ya look our no patch wonder shooter has made two posts in the last two years.
He sure waited long enough to stir the pot. :idunno:

His brothersaid,

mountain men didn't use no patch

Aside from the mangled grammer, that doesn't make it fact. There are probably more misconceptions about the ml game and it's history than any other avocation. Folks seem to want to believe the weirdo stuff.

 

[gearheart]

When dealing with unwelcome guests, and it's the last shot before the hand to hand game starts, you might skip the patch and just drop the ball down the barrel. It'll be a point blank shot so accuracy won't matter at all. :rotf: