Patterned My Tulle Today (At least I tried )

[GregC]

Went out today and tried to pattern my Tip Curtis Tulle today. Its cylinder bore, 20 guage.

I tried 2F and 3F loads between 60 and 80 grains, shot cups, no shot cups, OP cards, OS cards, corn meal, varying ozs. of shot, etc. etc. I tried every possible combination of powder, shot, cards, wads, etc. Bottom line is that nothing improved the pattern. In fact, my best pattern was my base line first shot. 70 grains of powder, same volume of shot, 1 OP card, 1 OS card.

At best, I had 8 pellets in the head and neck of my turkey target at 20 yards. At worst, 2 or 3. Be a great gun for clays or bunnies, but not a turkey gun.

Thankfully, my jug choked Caywood should be here in three weeks.

 

[roundball]

Went out today and tried to pattern my Tip Curtis Tulle today. Its cylinder bore, 20 guage.

I tried 2F and 3F loads between 60 and 80 grains, shot cups, no shot cups, OP cards, OS cards, corn meal, varying ozs. of shot, etc. etc. I tried every possible combination of powder, shot, cards, wads, etc. Bottom line is that nothing improved the pattern. In fact, my best pattern was my base line first shot. 70 grains of powder, same volume of shot, 1 OP card, 1 OS card.

At best, I had 8 pellets in the head and neck of my turkey target at 20 yards. At worst, 2 or 3. Be a great gun for clays or bunnies, but not a turkey gun.
Thankfully, my jug choked Caywood should be here in three weeks.

IMO, 1:1 is nowhere near enough shot for a tiny turkey head target...remember the old timer's saying something like: "less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead".
I average that many pellets in the vitals at 40yds from my jug choked GM .62cal barrel.

I use the powder & shot load recommended by the guy on his website (below)...excellent load.

80grns Goex 3F
Two 1/8" Oxyoke OP wads (my choice)
(no shot cup)
1+5/8oz magnum #6s
(nickel plated is even better, my choice)
(EcoTundsten is even better better, but expensive)
Circle Fly OS card

Remember, a long shot string at a stationary target is a good thing to really fill in the center.
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

 

[tg]

That theory really works. I used 1 1/8 or more with 50-60 gr 3f in my .58 which is way more than 1/1 and at 10-15 yds the squirrels tumbled right and left.They were hit by a lot of pellets, I never did count them though now that I think of it...I should have :hmm:

 

[Flintlock58]

Roundball is right on. Try his load and see what it does for you!

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu don't say what size shot you used, but you need to increase the amount of shot in relation to the volume of powder to get better patterns. In a 20 gauge, try 70 Grains of FFg and 1 1/8 oz of shot( 75 grains equivalent by volume). You can increase that to 1 1/2 or even the 1 5/8oz load if you are using #6 shot. I prefer using #5 because of the higher pellet energy at 30 yards, but its a balancing act between the number of pellets your gun will put in the target at 30 yards, vs. the difference in total energy of all the pellets that hit the game at that range. When I did the math patterning both #6 and #5 shot, my #5 shot load was close enough in pellet count to what my gun shooting #6 shot that the total pellet energy on target was higher using the #5 shot. Use the shotcups. But, remember to grease the cups, before putting them into the muzzle, and grease the bore with a lubed cleaning patch after you see the shot and os card.

I prefer to use two OS cards bending them a bit to get them into my muzzle, and then starting the two cards at different angles so that the critical edges of the cards protect each other if in turning the card in the barrel to run down on the shot charge causes any edge to turn.

I also see a benefit in using plated shot for hunting, altho its hard to justify the expense when doing initial load development. You want to do whatever it takes to protect the shot in the barrel. You don't want lead rubbing off on the inside of the barrel. It ruins subsequent patterns, and makes testing load meaningless. Greasing the bore helps to eliminate leading. It also helps the pellets slide over the bore, rather than rubbing flats in the pellets. Flats cause the pellets to drop out of your pattern, usually in the first 20 yards. If you do pattern on paper at 20 yards, or 15 yards, you will see these damaged shot pellets leaving a hole in the paper that has a flat on one side of the hole. Because they are losing velocity quickly, they tend to be found towards the bottom of the pattern, and at the bottom of the paper.

Protecting your shot in the barrel will put more shot in your pellet down range. That increases the hit count, and the energy on target.

Oh, don't forget that using a filler in the shot, like the very fine powder corn meal mix sold as " JIFFY Corn bread mix" in your grocery store, will protect the individual pellets. You have to tap the barrel or the side of your shot cup to get the powder to filter down between the shot pellets, and some shooters will make up shot cups at home to do this there, rather than try to do it in the field. Just wait until the shot "Package" is in the muzzle of your barrel, and tear off the top of it, to expose the shot, and then put your OS cards on top of the cup and run it down on the OP wads.

I am sorry that you are experiencing such frustration at this point, but you are actually getting close to finding the load. Remember how Edison handled thousands of failures at making a filament that would incandesce to make light, for his light bulb. He told his staff that we now know 4,000 ways NOT to make a filament that works. We are fast approaching the point where all that will be left is what works!

:thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Agree with the less powder, more lead. I'd try 1 oz shot and 60 gr FFg in a 20 bore. Then try 1-1/8 oz and 1-1/4 oz to see if it improves. You could also try moving up in shot size. I get less spread with #4 than #6 in my muzzleoladers.

Had similar results as you with my 16 bore Bess (Light Infantry Fusil). Had to get up close . . . 20 yards or so.

Another trick is to rough up the last 4" of the bore to "snag" the wads. But it takes an iron stomach to deliberately scour a bore.

You might want to PT CoyoteJoe about working a jug choke into the barrel if you want a turkey shotgun. He did a wonderful job with my New Englander cylinder bore and it's now an honest 55% pattern (Skeet #2) just as I requested.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've used as much as 1 5/8 oz of shot for turkey loads in a 20 ga. More shot is good! :thumbsup:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Say are you sure the pattern is point of aim?

Brit.

 

[tg]

What is an acceptable number of #5's in a gobblers head at 20 yds? I may take a fling at gobbleducks if I can find access this spring. I have a coupe of possiblities, I just need to rekindle the relationships in a casual and honest and open maner, quite a few years ago thru casual conversations it seemed as though the chance was pretty good to gain access but I did not have any smoothbores at the time and chose not to continue the quest with centerfire guns at the time.

 

[paulvallandigham]

At 1135 fps, the lowest MV given in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual, a #5 shot pellet retains 4.42 ft lbs. of energy at 20 yards. Compare that to the 3.19 Ft. lbs. of energy that a #6 shot pellet retains at the same yardage.(Pellet energy at the MUZZLE is 7.35 ft. lbs. for #5 shot, and 5.55 ft. lbs. for #6 shot. You can readily see that about half the pellet energy at the muzzle is lost by the time the shot travels that first 20 yards!)

If 12 ft. lbs. of energy is needed to kill a turkey with head and neck hits, it would take about 3 pellets of #5 shot to get the job done, while it will take about 4 pellets of #6 shot to do the same thing.

I don't know how much energy it takes to kill a turkey at 20 yards or any other distance. This is the kind of thing that gets discussed endlessly by experienced hunters. I know a case where a large pheasant was killed at a witnessed and paced off 60 yards with one pellet in the back of its head. I believe the pellet was a #6 shot. That 1135 fps MV load I referred to above, says that at 60 yards, the single pellet only has 1.45 ft. lbs. of energy left. Based on that one situation I can say that a pheasant- a large old cock pheasant can be killed with one pellet to the head that may have had less energy in it than the charged 1.45 ft. lbs. I don't know the MV of the load used.

I also would not be so bold as to compare a pheasant's skull to that of a turkey. I have read a lot of "expert " advice on how many pellets it takes to kill turkeys at various distances, but, frankly I don't recall any data for short yardage like 20 yds. The numbers always vary depending on what the yardage the author believes is a " reasonable " yardage to expect to take turkeys at based on his experience as a caller and hunter. The numbers also vary with pellet size, gauge, weight of shot load, and MV.

For your information, at 1135 fps MV, # 7 1/2 shot pellets retain 1.91 ft lbs., while # 8 shot pellets retain 1.62 ft. lbs. of shot, at that 20 yard distance.

Often people try to increase the number of pellets on a target at a given range by reducing the size of the pellets used.

Pellet count per oz. for the 4 sizes mentioned above are:

#5 = 170
#6 = 225
#7 1/2 = 350
#8 = 410

Every hunter I have ever met who intends to use a MLing shotgun to hunt turkey struggles with these same questions, and decisions. I have one friend who killed two turkeys in two days using a MLing shotgun. I don't recall his loads, or the yardage, but he bagged nice birds. I don't believe either of them was as close as 20 yards, tho.

If you can get more than 10 pellets on the head and neck of a turkey at a given yardage, regardless of shot size, I believe you will successfully kill the bird- maybe with your hands after you chase it down-- but you will kill the bird.

Paul

 

[CZMark]

In my experience, killing a turkey has very little to do with total pellet energy, and very much to do with having one or two pellets penetrate the brain or spine. Total energy plays a large part with birds and animals which are shot in the body; head/neck shots are an entirely different matter.

Having said that, the more pellets you can put into the head/ neck area, the greater are your chances of disrupting the central nervous system (by penetrating the brain, spine).

 

[paulvallandigham]

Biologically speaking, if you stun the central nervous system with a number of strikes, the bird is going to be unable to fly away, giving you time to get to it and grab it. If you have to you can then wring its neck in your hands- hence my comment!

Like you, my observation is that you have to hit the central nervous system, which consists of a very small brain, and a very thin spinal cord encased in the vertebrae of the neck. Using larger pellets that transfer more energy will help break bones, in either the skull and neck, so that even if you don't get a direct hit by a pellet to the central nervous system, you may drive a piece of bone from a vertebrae or the skull into one of those vital areas.

Unlike when using modern shotguns, where the length of the shotgun shells restricts the amount of shot you put in a load, a MLer is its own "Casing", and you can load more shot than would be contained in a modern shotgun shell. This allows the hunter to choose the size shot he feels will transfer the most energy at the distance he needs to get a kill, and then work on improving his pattern by adding more shot, and adjusting his powder charge, and other components.

If a shooter chooses to jug choke his barrel, fine. Last year, Roundball reported taking a turkey at 40 yards with his full choke, jug choked barrel on his single barrel shotgun. He has published his load here, I believe. Obviously out of a choked barrel, #6 shot work at that distance.

For the rest of the shooters who are hunting with traditional cylinder bore fowlers and shotguns, the birds probably need to be much closer. Most " Experts " consider the cylinder bore shotgun to be a 25 yard, and under shotgun.

From what we are learning here from forum members I believe that using shot cups, and greasing both the cups and the bore after the load is seated can produce much better patterns, and extend the range of cylinder bore guns out to 30-35 yards. That is a significant improvement. It may NOT be totally traditional, but all the items we are using to make the cups and lubes were available and used back in the 1st half of the 19th century. Our powder is probably better than what they had back then, and our barrels are now made of steel, rather than iron. We can't do anything about either. What we can do, as hunters, is work harder to call turkeys well within the range of our loads, and then make clean kills on them.

Turkey populations are growing with each passing year. Where we didn't have any wild turkeys in my county 20 years ago, we now have them occasionally wondering the residential streets of Urbana, Il. They even chase joggers! And, more and more people living in rural parts of this farming county are reporting sightings of the birds, as well as hearing the calls. The coyotes, feral dogs, and fox are having minimal impact on the populations. The opportunities to hunt Turkey are better than ever.

 

[wayne1967]

Thanks for the info on this post. I am getting ready to do the same thing.

 

[hawk]

sometimes I think it's to fall that kills them... not the shot. the flying ones that is

 

[hotsparks]

Paul


"Where we didn't have any wild turkeys in my county 20 years ago, we now have them occasionally wondering the residential streets of Urbana, Il. They even chase joggers!"

Funny you should mention that..here in South Al a month or so back the wild turkys were harrassing children at a school bus stop in the suburbs!! But the suckers all disappeared last week when turkey season started!!! Somebody said they saw them on a Greyhound headed for S. FL!!!!

John

 

[tg]

In the foothills around here people feed them so much you can walk up close enough to poke them with a stick in some place, kind of irritateing as the hunting liscence money was used for the transplsnt/establishment program for 20 years.

 

[rkmeyer]

Paul,
Have you ever had your hands on a live wild turkey?
If not, you may want to re-think that statement. I thought my shot had killed him, he never moved until I touched him and all h&^%l broke loose. :surrender: Wings beating, spurs & feet scratching he was a 23 pounder that seemed like Mohamid Ali on steroids. I would much prefer to knock him down for the count first.
Dusty

 

[paulvallandigham]

ME, Too!

I had my " encounter " with a large Canada Goose. I could not ring its neck, and ended up stepping on the neck to hold him down while I fished out a pocket knife and cut his head OFF! I can't tell you what that darn bird weighed, alive, but I had lots of experience handling 10 lb. and 20 lb. sacks of potatoes when I was in High school, working in a grocery store, and I can honestly tell you that the bird weighed closer to the 20 lb sack of potatoes, than the 10 lbs ones. Even with the head cut off, the wings kept beating for the next hour. Tenacity, for sure.

 

[rkmeyer]

How's this?
I was on a field goose hunt with a couple of friends a few years ago. One of the guys shot a goose that my dog retrieved alive. I took the goose and handed it to the shooter, he rung it's neck and set it in the blind. A few minutes later we heard the goose flapping a bit so the shooter got a hold of him and stepped on it's head and we heard it crunch OOOh! A while later the goose jumped up and flew away never more to be seen. They are tough critters as well.

 

[bingo1952]

I had a school buddy that was extremely fond of hunting Canada's over cornfields using the ditches as his blind. He had a flock come in and shot one and swung on another but before he could get the shot off the first one hit him square between the shoulder blades and pile-drove him into the bottom of the ditch. It knocked the wind out of him and when he finally got up he was spitting mud and weeds. :rotf: It's funny now looking back on it but a 10-15 lb bird at terminal velocity from 35-40 yards up packs a lot of punch.