PC Rifles

[Claude Mathis]

What I mean to say is before you slam me for shooting percussion, how many ol timers had $1500.00 custom flintlocks?

It almost appears that you're throwing down the gauntlet with your question, but it's really not necessary.

1. I doubt that anyone cares enough about what you shoot to "slam" you. It's your choice - enjoy it.

2. The "old-timers" weren't reenacting, so what they used has little to do with me purchasing a custom rifle, to emulate an 18th century weapon.

 

[David Teague]

I guess I just confused on why anybody would slam someone else here for shooting a caplock

I own custom, semi-custom, and factory made black powder firearms and I shoot match, flint, and cap.

I can see somebody at an reenactment not being allowed to participate if they don't meet the events rules (i.e. showing up in blue jeans with a T.C Hawkens for a F&I event, etc.), but that is a differant issue.

I can see a shooter not being able to compete at a match with a caplock, if it's a "Flintlock only" match.

I can see a shooter not being able to shoot his rifle if it's a smoothbore only match...

but when it comes to front stuffers, it's all good in my eyes (well, there is those inlines... :shake: , but that is a differant issue.)

I'm not sure why, but you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about people with custom flinters.

So, in closing.

I don't care how much you spent on your firearm, just have fun on the range with your caplock. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

DT

 

[Mike Brooks]

I guess I just confused on why anybody would slam someone else here for shooting a caplock

Nobody did, that's why I figured the guy has an ax to grind.

 

[Blivetmaker]

If an ax needs grinding, try "mizzy wheels".

Wow! See, even on this thread, it's possible to be helpful :shake:

PC or not that's one bee-u-tiful smokepole, Old Charlie! :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

I salute those who had the sense to stay out of this one and seriously wonder about some of the others, but will pursue it no further and sign off with a quote from one of my role models and one who has the most efficient way of avoiding confrontation and differeing opinions...from Eric Cartman of SouthPark...Sc&#% you guys, I'm going home...

 

[Greenmtnboy]

Hay guys not that I have been here long enough to whine about sompin ( thats hick ) But I live in Gunnison CO.PARIDISE!!!!!!! unfourtinally I share this vally with Crested Butte a to hip for their own good ski town. I have dated more than one hippychick from some eastern city who would remind me after a couple of wisky drinks ( me that is ) that I wasen't being P.C. enough for her liberal,non huntin,non marmot eatin, non wisky drinkin, non gun totin', tofo fartin fary friends :youcrazy:
SO please can we say period correct instead of PC.
If I am being a tooooo sensitive about this you can tell be to go pound dirt. I wont cry :rotf:
Greenmtnboy :hatsoff:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

OK, go pound dirt! :haha:
No really, as I understood the post, he thinks that "in the day", few people could afford the kind of rifles that sell for $1500 today. I think that would be cheap in terms of real income. Fifteen Hundred is about two weeks of average wage today. In Thomas Jefferson's day the average guy worked YEARS to pay off a new rifle.
Even an impoverished old fart like me could buy that rifle if I sold about half a dozen cheapies that clutter up my closet. Some folks just don't appreciate how good they have it.

 

[catskin]

So really - how much did a typical everyday rifle cost in 1800? Nothing fancy just a shooter - the model 700 of it's day say.

 

[Okwaho]

The average rifle made between 1819 and about 1837 cost about $5.00 to about $9.00 whereas others ranged upwards of about $11.00 to $19.00. A shot gun was $4.00 and a double barreled rifle was $40.00. The period of 1819-1837 is taken from two account books of Leonard Reedy who worked in Gratztown,Dauphin County,Pa. from about 1792 until 1837. He was known for quality rifles with good carving and engraved boxes although he doubtless made some plain guns as well as repairing and restocking guns.The bulk of the 45 rifles except for two bouble barreled guns and one shotgun reflected a cost of about $11.00 to about $19.00.
Joe Kindig Jr. "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in It's Golden Age" PP 13-22
Tom Patton

 

[Mike Brooks]

OK Tom that's cool, but what did the average gemoke make for a years wage back in those days?

 

[hawkeye1755]

Sorry Mike , what's an Gemoke? :hmm:

 

[benvenuto]

How much is that? historical money converter

You fellas may care to play around with this - a few friends of mine into history seem to think highly of it

 

[benvenuto]

Results:
In 2004, $10.00 from 1819 is worth:
$147.66 using the Consumer Price Index
$176.51 using the GDP deflator
$2,016.27 using the unskilled wage
$3,406.01 using the GDP per capita
$151,774.75 using the relative share of GDP

*The CPI is most often used to make comparisons partly because it is the series with which people are most familiar. This series tries to compare the cost of things the average household buys such as food, housing, transportation, medical services, etc. For earlier years, it is the most useful series for comparing the cost of consumer goods and services. It can be interpreted as how much money would you need today to buy an item in the year in question if it had changed in price the same as the average price change.
Source notes for CPI
*The GDP Deflator is similar to the CPI in that it is a measure of average prices. The "bundle" of goods and services here includes all things produced in the economy, not just consumer goods and services that are reflected in the CPI.
Source notes for GDP
*The Unskilled Wage Rate is good way to determine the relative cost of something in terms of the amount of work it would take to produce, or the relative time it would take to earn its cost. It can also be useful in comparing different wages over time. The unskilled wage is a more consistent measure than the average wage for making comparisons over time.
Source notes for Unskilled Wage
*The GDP per capita is an index of the economy's average output per person and is closely correlated with the average income. It can be useful in comparing different incomes over time.
Source notes for GDP
*The GDP is the market value of all goods and services produced in a year. Comparing an expenditure using this measure, tells you how much money in the comparable year would be the same percent of all output.
Source notes for GDP

 

[catskin]

So in todays dollars were talking $100 - $200 - equalent to todays junk sks or T/C. That makes the T/C *way* over priced - but hardly a years pay. Using the fact a custom rifle is basically hand made, a $2000 rifle would not be very far out of line for the cost of a regular handmade rifle - say the average custom jobbie.

I better show this to my wife”¦ :rotf:

 

[benvenuto]

$2,016.27 using the unskilled wage
*The Unskilled Wage Rate is good way to determine the relative cost of something in terms of the amount of work it would take to produce, or the relative time it would take to earn its cost. It can also be useful in comparing different wages over time. The unskilled wage is a more consistent measure than the average wage for making comparisons over time.

$10 = A good plain handmade rifle (since mass production did not exist in 1819)
Anyone have any idea what a comparable rifle would cost today (stock, lock and mounts made from scratch, barrel bought from supplier -I'm pressuming thats right for 1819?)

 

[rich pierce]

In 1819 it would be rare for a gunbuilder to make his own locks. Might be casting his own mounts, might not. There were gun factories making guns for trade. Tryon, Henry, etc. They made thousands of rifles. There were individual smiths making guns one at a time, and there were "contract houses" making guns for military orders.
Today to make a plain rifle (no carving, engraving, inlays, no special features like a hooked breech, you name it) from very good components costs about $450 in parts (assuming no precarve stock). That can vary up to $600. The current standards of customers now may be a little higher than what was required then, as far as finish etc is concerned for a plain level rifle. If starting from a blank, and hand-inletting the barrel and everything, it's hard to get er done in less than 80 hours even for fast workmen. Figure $10 an hour and you're talking $1250-$1400 as bottom level for a plain gun with very good components. Figure $20 an hour, about 1/4 what the auto mechanic charges, and you're coming in at $2000 plus.

Of course paying a little more for having the barrel channel and ramrod groove and hole done saves about 12-20 hours of fussing around, and that would save $120-$400 in labor, depending on speed and wage.

With those sorts of wages, very few can make anything close to a living, one that would support a small family. That's why plain rifles are the hardest to do at what the customer considers a good cost.

 

[riarcher]

I wonder;
In the year 2525 will a reproduction "Omega" be PC for the 21st century?
Or what will a reproduction of a 20th century's non-PC 1700's repro be called?
Think I'll try and hang around to find out for myself if I can. :haha:

 

[Legionair]

After reading lots of arguments pro and con, and admitting I am not an expert; I'll go out on a limb here (feel free to follow me with a saw).

I would say that a musket or rifle of the same operating mechanism as an original (no coil springs, 209 conversions, etc), with an appropriate finish on wood and metal (no anodized or parkerized metal, or polyurethane wood), with the approximately proper proportions and measurements of an original model, or similar proportions and measurements of a notable style of gun (ie Hawken, English fowler, Penn rifle, Barn gun) should fit the bill of PC.

I'm thinking that if a knowledgeable person can look at it and recognize the model or style immediately (as in "hey, that's a 1795 Springfield musket, right?", or " what's the finish on your Hawken?"), then you have a gun that, while not perfect, should be considered PC.

I've heard that some Bess's from india are too chunky, but you do recognize them immediately for what they are copying.

As for me... I do not shoot or own "custom rifles". My finances won't allow it, or $500 clothing from professional sutlers.

I have a good time with my NOT PC Traditions Hawken Woodsman, a pair of homemade mocassins, and a shirt of cotton under a wool balnket shirt (all handmade 'ceptin the rifle)over a pair of REALLY NOT PC canvas pants (storebought).

So I guess it's how authentic do you want to be?

Do you want to simulate the period and have some fun, or spend every moment documenting and procuring A#1 authentic one of a kind equipment while going nuts counting threads and watching your bank account dwindle.

I'm in this for a cheap, fun hobby and to learn a thing or two....if it's PC enough for me, then it's PC enough...

Just an opinion....

Legion

 

[rebelyell62]

Not meaning to beat the proverbeal dead horse, but I can say I do not hate any type of arm, inline, cap , flint, centerfire for that matter.As someone said many years ago......we must all hang together or we will all surely hang separatly.
Rebelyell supporter of the second amendment

 

[Stumpkiller]

As someone said many years ago......we must all hang together or we will all surely hang separatly.
Rebelyell supporter of the second amendment

Wasn't that Britain's Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in 1938 when he signed the treaty with Adolph Hitler?

Old Ben also quoted the Bible when he said: "if you lay with dogs you should expect to rise with fleas."