Pedersoli Brown Bess

[Rifleman1776]

There are some in this game who can , that is their job . :thumbsup:

you did not get my point.
my point is that NOBODY of us has been there in those days.

i can agree on the fact that there a some specialists that could tell how a musket from period XYZ should look like.

not less not more. :nono:

ike

I read a book a couple months ago, historical fiction but well researched. May have been 'Blood and Honour'. (problem with Kindle, no copy to reference). It was largely a story through the eyes of an American patriot who was a blacksmith. He relates how he was required to make "shot" for the English soliders. They would take back the mould when he was finished. He also had to make parts and repairs for their muskets. When doing this he usually made items for himself and hid them, under penalty of death if discovered. That way he, and other patriots acquired firearms for the revolution they knew was coming. Under those conditions, it is easy to surmise many 'variations' came about and were sometimes labeled as 'Brown Bess'. This is not a criticizm of those who strive for historical perfection. That is a quest that, to me, is something other than enjoying the avocation of muzzle loading and becomes an academic study in the dusty studies of some ivy covered college. I could get on a roll with this sermon. :yakyak:
But will stop and just repeat, IMHO, the Ped. BB is an excellent representation of the arm that was pedominant in the AWI. Viewed at more than arms length it is THE exact weapon of the Rev.

 

[Ike Godsey]

:thumbsup: :hatsoff: :bow:

 

[satx78247]

There seems to be "considerable variation" in quality between one Pedersoli 'Bess to another. - I looked a several at a "major retailer" & two were "unacceptable in quality" for the price. The rest of the group that I looked at were FINE.
(I have NO way of knowing if the "group" that I looked at are typical of overall Pedersoli workmanship or NOT.)

yours, satx

 

[Loyalist Dave]

What's taking them so long to step up anyway

When you are getting more than 2X the cash of your competition's guns, there is no need to change.

you did not get my point.
my point is that NOBODY of us has been there in those days.

That's a roundabout way of saying "you can't proove they didn't have it".


Which is why we defer to extant examples. I'm not an expert, but I can, with a glance at photos, tell you if it a musket looks like a Long Land Pattern or a Short Land Pattern, period. You think, Ike, by claiming that you need to be an "expert" that you can validate the pattern of the Pedersoli Bess. I disagree.

The lock shape, the sideplate shape, the lock engraving, the hardware shape all scream Short Land Pattern. The fact that a few of the Highland regiments shortened four inches off the barrel of their Long Land Pattern muskets is not an argument for accepting the appearance of the "Pedersoli pattern" musket. NEWS FLASH at least one regiment in the British service in North America was armed with captured French muskets... by your logic all of the British reenactors could carry French muskets.

The Pedersoli is a very good choice for a shooter. It's an acceptable choice for living history. At more than 2x the price, it better be. For the Pedersoli price you get three things..., more authentic looking wood (they aren't walnut), a proofed barrel, and interchangeable parts (they don't break down often). If one of the importers figures out to use maple for the stock and gets the barrels certified or proofed while keeping the price several hundred dollars less than the Pedersoli product... the Pedersoli product will be doomed. They will either have to change their pattern OR they will have to discontinue making them due to low sales.

LD

 

[Ike Godsey]

WOW! wait a minute! i have NEVER mentioned i am an expert of any kind.

and i have never said that, by knowing the fact that one (or more) british regiments have been armed with the french 1728/46 muskets, is a evidence that all british re-enactor regiments could carry such a weapon.

i tell you something: the Pedersoli Bess is a far better choise for both, re-enacting and living history. and it would be great to see if everyone in (at least the german) re-enactor scene would carry one - but that is NOT the case! there are many re-enactors out there carring a "Borwn Bess" musket, may it be made in india or not does not matter at all if (and that is fact) this type of "Brown Bess" is a 3rd model Brown Bess.

i have seen more of these type of gus in the FIW scene than a Pedersoli Bess - and by knowing that fact, i really wished everyone would carry a Pedersoli Bess - cause that is a far better choise than an India Pattern musket. do you really think it is of any interest if there is one or two screws in the rear extension of the trigger guard? i would be lucky if they would use a 42" barreled Brown Bess (let alone the 46") istead of a 39" barrel.

:2

ike

 

[pargent]

ff Get yourself a copy of these two books and it will help you to understand the Bess .
The Brown Bess by Eric Goldstein - covers most of the Land Patterns with good easy to follow ID. guides and plenty of high resolution photos .

Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664-1815 by De Witt Bailey PhD. This volume is just amazing full of details on every thing most sane people would want to know ,even documented receipts for the (MUCH TOUTED SHORTENING OF MUSKETS and who did the work and for how much )Which units carried which muskets and when, muskets issued to the first Lights and Rangers in the F&I War .Sea Service guns , Marine muskets and the captured French guns as well and who got them .The first issue of rifles ,who payed for them ,how much , where they came from and what happened to them . But be warned De Witt debunks most of the :bull: still circulating around nowdays
Love my Pedersoli Bess by the way.

 

[Alden]

What's taking them so long to step up anyway

When you are getting more than 2X the cash of your competition's guns, there is no need to change...

My question was a little sarcastic but more rhetorical than that. Getting twice the price of their competition's gun? There is no competition! And please don't say anything about India...

Pedersoli's beautiful Bess is the standard by which everything else is measured and we pay the price because, at the end of the day, we realize they're basically worth it! Almost any other choice means changing your personna as a reenactor!

Clearly they can produce anything they want if you are familiar with their product line. Many in it seem like "vanity" pieces but they need not dilute the Bess and Charleville sales by competing against themselves.

Had someone like Japan been smart, or the all-but-dead and buried Spanish, they would have made a Pedersoli-quality 1st Model Brown Bess at a better price-point but with interchangeable-with-Pedersoli flintlocks to take on Pedersoli with their own success. Too late... I believe that was India's inroad model musket and they couldn't produce an interchangeable inlet stock and barrel if one of their reincarnated lives depended on it. A Miroku-quality properly priced French 1728/46 would have been a good choice too IMO.

 

[Ike Godsey]

ff Get yourself a copy of these two books and it will help you to understand the Bess .
The Brown Bess by Eric Goldstein - covers most of the Land Patterns with good easy to follow ID. guides and plenty of high resolution photos .

Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664-1815 by De Witt Bailey PhD. This volume is just amazing full of details on every thing most sane people would want to know ,even documented receipts for the (MUCH TOUTED SHORTENING OF MUSKETS and who did the work and for how much )Which units carried which muskets and when, muskets issued to the first Lights and Rangers in the F&I War .Sea Service guns , Marine muskets and the captured French guns as well and who got them .The first issue of rifles ,who payed for them ,how much , where they came from and what happened to them . But be warned De Witt debunks most of the :bull: still circulating around nowdays
Love my Pedersoli Bess by the way.

do you think we're under educated over here or what?

what i wrote is MY impression after reading all those books plus researching hours and hours in other publications, as well as on the internet.

the summ on all that is, that in Goldsteins book there are the type of muskets issued by the king, so called "Kings Muskets" and it shows the muskets as they should be.

whats missing are the "Colonels Muskets" as described in De Witt Baily's book and the many variations of it. who can tell that a musket with a stright lock and a 42" barrel have not been made and sold as colonels muskets and used in the FWI / AWI?

if you look in Bill Ahearns book you can see what was used in the AWI especially on the US side - and looking at the Pedersoli Bess it is a very good choise.

no harms.

ike

 

[pargent]

:redface: Ok read the two I listed cover to cover, there is sure to be a quiz later

 

[pargent]

WT.. do you mean by COLS. MUSKET.?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My question was a little sarcastic but more rhetorical than that. Getting twice the price of their competition's gun? There is no competition! And please don't say anything about India...

Heavy sigh... :shake:

It's not a contest on appearance quality or the quality of the mass production consistency... their competition is soley based on sales. They do not produce any gun or rifle simply because it's the prettiest.

SHEESH!

If the Pedersoli Frontier flintlock rifle was the same price as a semi-custom rifle, instead of being 1/2 the price of a semi-custom rifle..., it would lose most of it's market share, for the ONLY thing going for the Frontier aka Blue Ridge Hunter is its price. The stock is wrong, the lock is wrong, the hardware is wrong, and the sights are wrong. You have about a 50/50mchance of ignition problems due to the patent breech.

I have seen probably 30 new muskets in the hands of reenactors in 2013... NONE were Pedersoli. I've seen maybe a dozen newly purchased, used muskets in the hands of reenactors... and living history here in the US is the number one niche for the Pedersoli Bess. The ONLY non-Indian muskets were used Japs and used Pedersoli's, as they go for between $600-$750, which is equal to slightly more than the cost of the Indian competition.

BTW there has been a Bess on Gunbroker that has been there for three months now..., being sold at the suggested retail price, gets relisted all the time, zero buyers. There is a used bess with the rare "Stowe" marked lock. It even has been retro fitted with a rounded side plate.. been there for almost as long and no buyers at $1100.00, though it is $200 less than a new Pedersoli from Cabela's or Dixie, unless there is a sale on.

IF Pedersoli simply retooled, and made a good copy of the 1756 Long Land Pattern for say $800 American, plus $150 for the Bayonet... not a great copy but simply a good copy would suffice..., they'd bury the Indian makers. (imho-hbc)

LD

 

[Ike Godsey]

WT.. do you mean by COLS. MUSKET.?

OMG! Who is to read books from cover to cover?

While the official Brown Bess muskets were being issued through the Board of Ordnance to Royal forces, a parallel business existed for similar patterns being produced and sold by private British contractors to individual regimental colonels, trading companies, local English defense units and to provincial colonies, towns and militias in North America. They normally included a reliable lock and barrel, but would reduce or simplify the furniture and other components to remain competitive in price.

Look here.

:v

ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

IF Pedersoli simply retooled, and made a good copy of the 1756 Long Land Pattern for say $800 American, plus $150 for the Bayonet... not a great copy but simply a good copy would suffice..., they'd bury the Indian makers. (imho-hbc)

LD

agreed 100% :thumbsup:

ike

 

[Alden]

LD;
I have NO idea what point you are trying to make (but note quite a few unfounded opinions stated as fact which is never good).

Ike;
Can you help him get his message across Mein Herr!? Danke.

 

[Zonie]

Gentlemen:
I suggest that several of you people need to take a break and read Forum Rules 13 thru 16.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showrules.php

 

[pargent]

:thumbsup: Point taken ,if I listed my quals. on my profile maybe this sort of thing would not happen , but then I would get no rest.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Gentlemen:
I suggest that several of you people need to take a break and read Forum Rules 13 thru 16.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showrules.php

you're right - peace man. :surrender: :v

and as i wrote earlier: no harms.

ike

 

[Wes/Tex]

The way I look at it, Pedersoli could make a much more 'correct' Bess with a few mods. These include deleting the big fish ear at the rear of the lock panels since this went out during the LLP era; flattening the panel skirt around the tang which is too thick or high and remarking their locks with the "Tower" markings correct for the post 1768 era. These three things alone would greatly improve the outward appearance of the muskets and more closely match the originals. Doing so would almost certainly cut their production costs saving what they might incur in making new stamps to mark the locks correctly with the "Tower' mark rather than the incorrect "Grice 1762" markings.

Remember also, the Short Land Pattern was first issued out to only the new Light Companies being put into place and many battalion companies still carried the LLP, and would for some years. Though technically, the SLP was replaced in the late 1780's or early 1790's, some older Besses soldiered on through the war and now their replicas are being used for re-enactors doing periods from 1775 to 1815, mostly because there's nothing to replace them with except the Indian made muskets, so denigrated by many current shooters. In fact, there were 3 distinct models of the SLP and even more of the LLP Bess, plus a couple different versions of the India Pattern; the New Land Pattern and the "New Land Pattern for Light Regiments"...and the list goes on to include the regular "New Land Pattern" issued to the Guards, etc. It's a nice, twisted mess. Things got critical enough that British Ordnance bought Liege made muskets for British troops that fit none of these categories...confused yet? :hmm:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Actually the SLP's that made it to America had rounded, not flat, sideplates. I'd suggest that they do the sideplate, and redue the lock plate and make an actual '56..., change the lock maker and date, and OK they could keep the 42" barrel to save $$ as some units shortened the LLP bess barrels. Remove the forward "trumpet" ramrod lug, and simply use another intermediate lug to save some $$. Extend the butt plate on the comb.

Slight mods to the SLP will not change the fact that less than 10% of the folks in North America carried them. Even if they made a perfect copy of an SLP bess, it would be wrong for 90% of the folks carrying it.

As far as application of models, they probably would do better to produce a 1756 LLP without the nose cap..., to simulate the earlier LLP's that were upgraded to a metal rammer. Then simply let those who wish add a metal nose cap... to complete a copy of a '56; selling that part after-market. Followed by introducing an India Pattern or 3rd Model bess while cancelling their shortened bess, which is just a fantasy musket anyway. Of the three models, the SLP really saw the least amount of time and action.

Again, (imho) if they could do this for SRP of $800, OR even $900 with it going on sale from time to time at $750..., they'd crush the Indian guns off the market. Cabela's and Dixie routinely knock $200 off the price when the bess goes on sale.

LD

 

[Ike Godsey]

....

Again, (imho) if they could do this for SRP of $800, OR even $900 with it going on sale from time to time at $750..., they'd crush the Indian guns off the market. Cabela's and Dixie routinely knock $200 off the price when the bess goes on sale.

LD

yes. maybe. maybe in the US. not here. here it is a known fact that those dealers who sell Pedersoli Bessies (not all of the muzzleloader dealers do that here!) will add a little extra to the suggested price instead of taking something off.

here i an example. an INDIAN made 1717 musket in a shop in Poland is 460.00€. it has a polish proof. the same musket (from the same source) with a German proof, from a German shop is 739,00€.

an INDIAN made bess (SLP) with German proof and from a German shop is 649,00€ - the Pedersoli Bess sells here for around 1100.00€ - this is about 450.00€ less for the india made bess - or in US$ ist about 600.00$

nd to be honest, i really do not think, that the price will be lowered if Pedersoli would produce a P1756 bess. why should it be?

the Pedersoli Borwn Bess is 15 times European champion (and i think world champinon as well) in muzzleloading musket over the past 18 years. the other years the 1777 (Pedersoli) was champion. so for what reason should they change anything?
their politics are "If you will play at the top, you need to pay a top price for a top weapon".

ike