A central fire cartridge had the primer on the inside of the base and in the center of the base where the firing pin hit just as with the centerfire. There was no visible sign of it on the outside of the base, the base on the outside being smooth and continuous. When they started making cartridges with a primer pocket and separate primer they began calling it centerfire.
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Percussion Rifles Beginning?
- Thread starter Eric M
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JOHN L. HINNANT
45 Cal.
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Good Morning Charcoal,
No..., there is not. That is a continuing debate point among students and researchers of the Alamo story.
I see no reason to not believe that some caplock rifles were at the Alamo. The caplock system was well established by 1836. Texas had some good costal ports, and all kinds of goods were coming in from the States. New Orleans was only a three or four day Gulf voyage away. With the Mississippi River mouth at New Orleans, hundreds of thousands of all kinds of goods were arrivng daily at New Orleans.
There was also a brisk overland trade and trade route into Texas. My 6th generation grandparent traveled this trade route in 1833 from New Orleans to San Patricio, Texas by oxen pulled wagon. Family lore is that he carried a caplock rifle purchased in New Orleans.
Incidently there were a number of Eastern young men from wealthy families at the Alamo. Most, if not all of them would have been outfitted with the best money could buy.
At the same, many gunsmiths were busy converting flintlocks to caplock. Even Sam Hawken is quoted as saying this conversation was a major business for the Hawken shop, especially once travel on the Oregan Trail started.
And so I say, while not proven yes or no, there is not a good reason to claim that there could not have been any caplock arms at the Alamo. I would be very surprised to learn of proof that there were none at the Alamo.
With respect to all,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
No..., there is not. That is a continuing debate point among students and researchers of the Alamo story.
I see no reason to not believe that some caplock rifles were at the Alamo. The caplock system was well established by 1836. Texas had some good costal ports, and all kinds of goods were coming in from the States. New Orleans was only a three or four day Gulf voyage away. With the Mississippi River mouth at New Orleans, hundreds of thousands of all kinds of goods were arrivng daily at New Orleans.
There was also a brisk overland trade and trade route into Texas. My 6th generation grandparent traveled this trade route in 1833 from New Orleans to San Patricio, Texas by oxen pulled wagon. Family lore is that he carried a caplock rifle purchased in New Orleans.
Incidently there were a number of Eastern young men from wealthy families at the Alamo. Most, if not all of them would have been outfitted with the best money could buy.
At the same, many gunsmiths were busy converting flintlocks to caplock. Even Sam Hawken is quoted as saying this conversation was a major business for the Hawken shop, especially once travel on the Oregan Trail started.
And so I say, while not proven yes or no, there is not a good reason to claim that there could not have been any caplock arms at the Alamo. I would be very surprised to learn of proof that there were none at the Alamo.
With respect to all,
John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"
Just for a little counter point concerning percussion locks.
"I hasten to inform you that Percussion Locks will not answer at all for the Rifles, and I beg you will be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required, the price being secondary..."
Ramsey Crooks to J.J Henry in 1830
John Bidwell on the rifle he carried to California in 1841
"my gun was an old flint-lock rifle, but a good one. Old hunters told me to have nothing to do with cap or percussion locks, that they were unreliable, and if I got my caps or percussion wet I could not shoot, while if I lost my flint I could pick up another..."
Flint and agate are common in the west and agate makes decent flints sometimes with no stone working at all.
The quotes are from "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865". There is a pretty balanced discussion of flint vs percussion in the far west its in the first rifle chapter.
Yes, powder can get damp too. But in the west it could be, and was, spread on a blanket to dry in the sun. Powder made with pure saltpeter will dry very well unless gotten really wet then it may decompose due to the water breaking down the grains into their component chemicals. I don't know if damp caps will dry at all with the Potassium Clorate in the mix. Would have to ask a chemist with some experience with this chemical.
A GOOD flintlock gives little to a percussion gun in reliability. This is especially true of drum and nipple guns. The corrosiveness of the caps is another probelm, since they also contain potassium chlorate in most cases. In the dry west BP fouling is often not even corrosive due to low humidity. This is below 30-40% RH. The salt by product of the chlorate cap will pull in water from the air at almost any RH level and promote rust or attract moisture to dampen the subsequent cap if the gun is not cleaned well after the previous firing. By well I mean water to saturate and wash away the salt.
The percussion gun is easier to shoot well. But if wiped, but not detail cleaned, after being shot it often will misfire on the next shot unless the flash channels are cleaned. A flint gun is much easier to unfoul or it may not foul the flash channel at all due to being less complex. This could be one reason for the feather in the vent detailed by Audubon.
Yes there were apparently significant numbers of percussion guns in the mountain west by the mid 1830s at least. But the acceptance was far from universal into the 1840s. In 1840 the standard issue military arm was still flintlock and the sole departure was the Hall Carbine of 1833 (?)
Frankly in 1835 a man with a good flintlock rifle was probably not improving his lot by changing to percussion unless he got a very good one and knew how to manage it.
Remember in the Colonial era the rifles were often wiped with a wad of tow with tallow on it on a worm.
A feather in the vent would prevent plugging and the tallow wipe would not disable to rifle as a wash out with water would.
Its tough to put a feather in a drum and impossible with a patent breech that lacks a clean out. Then what if the screw is dropped??
So people in the west did not throw over their good flint guns for percussion as soon as it was available. It was life or death far more so than in the east or in Europe.
Its past bedtime in Montana.
Dan
"I hasten to inform you that Percussion Locks will not answer at all for the Rifles, and I beg you will be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required, the price being secondary..."
Ramsey Crooks to J.J Henry in 1830
John Bidwell on the rifle he carried to California in 1841
"my gun was an old flint-lock rifle, but a good one. Old hunters told me to have nothing to do with cap or percussion locks, that they were unreliable, and if I got my caps or percussion wet I could not shoot, while if I lost my flint I could pick up another..."
Flint and agate are common in the west and agate makes decent flints sometimes with no stone working at all.
The quotes are from "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865". There is a pretty balanced discussion of flint vs percussion in the far west its in the first rifle chapter.
Yes, powder can get damp too. But in the west it could be, and was, spread on a blanket to dry in the sun. Powder made with pure saltpeter will dry very well unless gotten really wet then it may decompose due to the water breaking down the grains into their component chemicals. I don't know if damp caps will dry at all with the Potassium Clorate in the mix. Would have to ask a chemist with some experience with this chemical.
A GOOD flintlock gives little to a percussion gun in reliability. This is especially true of drum and nipple guns. The corrosiveness of the caps is another probelm, since they also contain potassium chlorate in most cases. In the dry west BP fouling is often not even corrosive due to low humidity. This is below 30-40% RH. The salt by product of the chlorate cap will pull in water from the air at almost any RH level and promote rust or attract moisture to dampen the subsequent cap if the gun is not cleaned well after the previous firing. By well I mean water to saturate and wash away the salt.
The percussion gun is easier to shoot well. But if wiped, but not detail cleaned, after being shot it often will misfire on the next shot unless the flash channels are cleaned. A flint gun is much easier to unfoul or it may not foul the flash channel at all due to being less complex. This could be one reason for the feather in the vent detailed by Audubon.
Yes there were apparently significant numbers of percussion guns in the mountain west by the mid 1830s at least. But the acceptance was far from universal into the 1840s. In 1840 the standard issue military arm was still flintlock and the sole departure was the Hall Carbine of 1833 (?)
Frankly in 1835 a man with a good flintlock rifle was probably not improving his lot by changing to percussion unless he got a very good one and knew how to manage it.
Remember in the Colonial era the rifles were often wiped with a wad of tow with tallow on it on a worm.
A feather in the vent would prevent plugging and the tallow wipe would not disable to rifle as a wash out with water would.
Its tough to put a feather in a drum and impossible with a patent breech that lacks a clean out. Then what if the screw is dropped??
So people in the west did not throw over their good flint guns for percussion as soon as it was available. It was life or death far more so than in the east or in Europe.
Its past bedtime in Montana.
Dan
"Has anyone ever seen evidence, possibly gleaned from diaries, letters, etc. of any percussion arms being used at the Alamo?'
I believe that on this or another forum there was evidence given to support the presence of caplock at the Alamo in 1836, which is no real surprise considering all the other records of caps being sent/used in much more remote areas in the west even earlier than 1836, any military gun were likley flint but civilian guns could have easily been new or converted caplocks by that time, over most of the west the caplock was not likley yet the "norm" though.If I can find the posts I saw from the thread about the Alamo and caps I will post it.
I believe that on this or another forum there was evidence given to support the presence of caplock at the Alamo in 1836, which is no real surprise considering all the other records of caps being sent/used in much more remote areas in the west even earlier than 1836, any military gun were likley flint but civilian guns could have easily been new or converted caplocks by that time, over most of the west the caplock was not likley yet the "norm" though.If I can find the posts I saw from the thread about the Alamo and caps I will post it.
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
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Needle fire guns were some of the first that used self contained cartridges, but the Needle didn't strike a cap like the pin fire did until later. The first needle fire gun had football shaped slugs nestled in a fiber sabot. the back end of the sabot was hollow and filled with powder. at the base of the powder was match material, same that ignites a strike anywhere match when struck on a piece or rough metal. The needle was serrated or covered with roughness, so when it moved forward (similar to the firing pin in a bolt action) the roughened part of the needle penetrated the match material causing it to ignite, and then ignite the powder causing the pressure to send the sabot and slug down bore. When everything worked right, nothing was left in the chamber except fouling. it was invented by an Englishman named Snyder and was the first bolt action arm I am aware of. (Not the Snider who invented the system used by England to convert Enfield rifles to breech loader) The English military wasn't impressed. A continental gunsmith named Dreyse improved the system and it was adopted by the Prussian army. They leaked gas so bad that the Prussian soldiers often held them at the hip to fire them, but with the ability to rapidly repeat fire, they held the firepower margin over other European armies for at least a decade. Since the Prussian needle gun was a bolt action, it seemed natural for them to design their first cartridge guns on the bolt system, resulting in the early 11mm Mauser. The needle was replaced with a firing pin the bolt fitted with an extractor and the chamber modified. The US having used side lock Muskets and pressed for funds, adapted the side lock system to breech loaders and used the trapdoor for thirty years.
