Percussion Wheel Gun Accuracy

[Pete453]

Bad Karma, I love your pics of that revolver!
I dont think its the "long jump" to the rifling that's a detriment, i think its uneven powder compression. The loading rams don't go very deep, i think at some point it cant get even compression on the powder and some chambers squib. Thats why i don't drop below 25gr in my 58 remington. At 30-35grs, with a wad and round ball it chews up stuff and can shame a modern plastic gun. It won't do that with 20grs, and it gives a dull report.

 

[Stantheman86]

Wheel Gun has been a common term for a revolver for my entire life

 

[Stantheman86]

The Short Arbor is way more apparent on the big Horse Pistols

My Uberti Walker needs help now, after two range trips a while back with many 50gr charges and a few 60 grainers . The barrel is no longer tight and moves back and forth and side to side a hair with the wedge properly seated . It needs the short arbor corrected. The wedge alone is not designed to absorb the recoil from heavy charges .

With 20 or 30gr charges in Army and Navy revolvers, it's less of an issue, no doubt

 

[user 48702]

Shooting any handgun with open sights at 50 yards is nuts.

I'd like to see the any of the guys shooting 9mm Glocks do this.

Hat's off.

Those of us on the pistol team considered it a challenge. B8 NRA 50 yd bullseye target, with an X ring just under 2" inches. If you could keep it in the 9 ring, you had about 5 inches to play with. Slow and rapid fire, one hand with an M1911A1 .45 caliber pistol, National Match stance quartering the target. But then again, we fired several hundred rounds a week. Still carry a hammer bite scar on the web of my hand, but wouldn't take anything for it. Those match armorers at Quantico could take a sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse.

 

[M. De Land]

I had a Uberti with .447 chamber mouths and a .45 bore,,It shot 12”+ patterns at 25 yards,, Once I checked the bore and chamber mouths I got a .451 reamer and after reaming the cylinder mouths my groups shrunk to less than 3” at 25 yards,,and that is shooting while on my hind legs with a two hand hold.

Yup, that doesn't surprise me at all !

 

[M. De Land]

Alrghty, then...


Can you explain how reaming is done, or provide a link, please? Thank you.

It can be done by hand and just feeling it in but a far better job will be done in a mill or drill press with the cylinder in a jig mounted in a table vice with x-y cross axis feed to keep every thing square and plumb. Center is found with a dead center or pin gauge, the gauge removed from the quill and the reamer incerted, quill depth locked and reaming cut made with plenty of cutting oil. repeat until done. Each chamber needs to be individually centered.
In a closed frame gun the best job I have done was to remove the barrel and make a reamer guide to fit the barrel hole. This line bored the chamber mouth to the center of the barrel hole. This is the 58 I have that will out shoot my ROA which is pretty accurate as is with a trigger job.

 

[M. De Land]

Dang, are you saying you wish you hadn't fixed the arbor?

Mike

Just means it doesn't really matter if you gauge the wedge depth each time !

 

[M. De Land]

The Short Arbor is way more apparent on the big Horse Pistols

My Uberti Walker needs help now, after two range trips a while back with many 50gr charges and a few 60 trainers . The barrel is no longer tight and moves back and forth and side to side a hair with the wedge properly seated . It needs the short arbor corrected. The wedge alone is not designed to absorb the recoil from heavy charges .

With 20 or 30gr charges in Army and Navy revolvers, it's less of an issue, no doubt

The recoil is not pressuring the wedge but rather the recoil shield from the cylinder base in the frame and the barrel is trying to go the other direction and take the wedge with it. The ball or bullet hitting the forcing cone and then engraving the rifling is what is trying to tear off the end of the arbor via the wedge . Wither the arbor makes contact with the end of the well or not the barrel is still trying to move down range with the projectile. Jamming the arbor into the end of the arbor well does not change this fact in the least. It is an easy way to set up wedge depth though and perhaps has some accuracy potential but I tend to doubt it. We'll see with the Ransom rest testing if I can get to it before cold weather hits.

 

[45D]

Hogwash!

Mike

 

[45D]

Just means it doesn't really matter if you gauge the wedge depth each time !

That's hilarious !!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Well there are at least a couple of us on here that have open frame guns that have been going for decades with short arbors, are sthill accurate and have not wrecked themselves. Could be the exceptions to your rule I suppose but I doubt it since literally thousands of open frame guns in use today have short arbors .

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

It seems to me like M. DeLand is right, there are no forces trying to move the barrel towards the frame. The force is trying to separate them. Having the arbor bottom out in the barrel assembly isn't going to make a lot of difference.

 

[45D]

You're exactly right sir. My Walkers never beat the fool out of wedges, wedges never worked loose ( er) and allowed barrel material to upset behind the wedge, I lied !

My Dragoons didn't start doing the same thing, only right off the bat, as unmentionables either, more lies !

The hundreds of customers that have expressed the same experiences must have been lying as well!!

The FACT is, fixing the arbor situation CURED the problems . . . ACROSS THE BOARD!!!
The Fact is, it's Colt's design- not mine!!
The Fact is, Pietta saw fit to CORRECT what they had been doing wrong for decades!!!

I'm sure I've mentioned it before but I choose go with Colt's design, not Italys.
The design is such a good design the Italians can get away with building it wrong UNLESS, you shoot max loads as a norm.

It's funny how someone that commented about "civility" in this conversation decided to spout the same junk that's been talked about in several other discussions we've had. Imagine that.

As stated in some of my latest posts, the loads I shoot are not only a testament to Colt's design done right, but are proof of the durability of the design. I've shot more powerful loads than has ever been done before in the belt pistol platform. I'd definitely NOT shoot them in a revolver set up by your description sir!!

Seems to me it should be pretty clear what the results of your "experiment" is going to be lol!! You've "tainted" your own test at this point.

Mike

 

[45D]

It seems to me like M. DeLand is right, there are no forces trying to move the barrel towards the frame. The force is trying to separate them. Having the arbor bottom out in the barrel assembly isn't going to make a lot of difference.

Then tell me sir what the force is that beats wedges and upsets barrel material?
Since you can't figure it out, I'll tell you . . .
It is harmonics transfer through the arbor solid against the barrel.

If it isn't, why does it NOT happen to revolvers that have been corrected??

What changes when the arbor IS correct that stops these things from happening?

Why do auto engines have harmonic balancers on them?

You "engineers" are cracking me up!! Lol

Colt didn't supply a $200 wedge to be the backbone of his design - a correct length arbor is all that is needed. Just a 30 cent s.s. spacer is all one needs to fix Italys mistake . . . no wedge will correct it, that's for sure!!


Mike

 

[Desperate Lee]

Some folks think a long “jump” from cylinder to barrel is detrimental to accuracy. I’m not totally convinced but I’m not a target shooter.

I am with you brother, but i dont shoot that much anymore. I now sight in my weapons and once I have done that then they are cleaned, logged into my book, and go into the collection. Now the exception is my sheriff model '51 44 cal. That one stays loaded with 30 grns 3f Swiss and a .454 round ball. Excellent pest control round. It stays loaded no more than 2 weeks at a time.

 

[Bad Karma]

Then tell me sir what the force is that beats wedges and upsets barrel material?
Since you can't figure it out, I'll tell you . . .
It is harmonics transfer through the arbor solid against the barrel.

If it isn't, why does it NOT happen to revolvers that have been corrected??

What changes when the arbor IS correct that stops these things from happening?

Why do auto engines have harmonic balancers on them?

You "engineers" are cracking me up!! Lol

Colt didn't supply a $200 wedge to be the backbone of his design - a correct length arbor is all that is needed. Just a 30 cent s.s. spacer is all one needs to fix Italys mistake . . . no wedge will correct it, that's for sure!!


Mike

And one of the principal reasons the War Department gave for requiring a top strap on the new revolvers was the wedges had a significant failure rate. That’s according to Charles Pate.

BTW, I wish the build process had been more clearly defined by the builders at the time. I’ve read some material which seems to indicate that the arbor and frame were case hardened before assembly with the barrel, meaning that any fitting would have to be done in the well. The end of the originals I’m familiar with are all domed, not flat like reproduction revolvers. Filing to that shape is an interesting choice…

 

[Bad Karma]

Dang, are you saying you wish you hadn't fixed the arbor?

Mike

Nope, I don’t feel strongly enough one way or another about it. The gun ran just fine for me before the fix. It works well now. I suspect it would have continued to serve me as long as I have left and beyond. (The oldest of my great-granddaughters has dibs on it.) I have others I haven’t fixed and they’re running well too.. I’m always loathe to jump into this one Mike. It’s like asking which cleaning solution is best.

 

[Bad Karma]

Alrghty, then...


Can you explain how reaming is done, or provide a link, please? Thank you.

I’ve done it on a drill press, lately I’ve sent them to Charlie Hahn. He does a nice job for a very reasonable price.

 

[springfield art]

No, sorry, totally my bad. Late at night. (It does have to be an adequate defense load tho.)

Any intruder would high tail it out if some home defender started blasting Black Powder loads at him!

 

[45D]

And one of the principal reasons the War Department gave for requiring a top strap on the new revolvers was the wedges had a significant failure rate. That’s according to Charles Pate.

I would suspect it's the same "problem " they had with the picket bullets. The men loading them backwards tended to get a blown up cylinder!!
Likewise today, many Cowboy shooters put the wedge in " finger tight" for convenience. It may work with light loads but it definitely won't with max loads. Understand, these were a new item for soldiers back then and didn't fully understand ( even if they read the instructions).

I and many of my customers shoot nothing but top end loads ( which would be any unmentionable load with smokeless) and there are absolutely no problems with the destructive nature that comes with that type shooting. It most definitely is the "fix". Just as designed.

Mike