Percussion Wheel Gun Accuracy

[Desperate Lee]

You know, sometimes they come at you in packs.
View attachment 163452
And that's when I reach for an 1851.

Thats what I am talking about. That old saying " PROTECT YOUR NUTS " holds true here.

 

[Desperate Lee]

I understand and my question to you was somewhat "tongue in cheek" since you made it a point.

I'll just reiterate what I posted just above, once the "fix" is done, no more problems.

Mike

Now here i have to go along with 45D. I mostly buy Pietta's for that one reason. The arbor is usually excellent on them. I dont know why Uberti doesn't fix the arbor problem. Here are my thoughts, Pietta finish not quite as good as Uberti, however the arbor fit and finish is better than Uberti's. For that reason i usually buy Pietta. Pietta's fit and finish is a hell of a lot better now adays. My stainless NMA is damn near perfect. The two cylinders fit perfectly. Now i know we are talking open top but i had to throw this in. Now here is my final thoughts, before i take a nap, if the weapon i buy is strickly for collection I dont bother with the arbor. If these are for shooting, I definately fix the arbor and timing. I am one for the stressed look so a total refinish is not in the books for any weapon i own.

 

[Malamute]

I would not expect a modern semi-auto Glock or the like to be able to group better than 12" at 50Y. The barrel floats, it is short, high recoil makes it difficult to get consistency, etc.

Surprisingly, they seem to do a bit better on average, 3" @ 25 yds seems common with decent ammo, with some noticeably better. Newer generations seem to be a little better on average than older ones as well. Im not a fan, but believe in giving the devil his due.

The example of one I have used has made 6-7 hits for 10 shots on an 18" plate @ 300 yards, with witnesses, on many occasions, over a number of years. Thats two handed. It falls off a bit shooting one handed. Its not rocket surgery, just easier to do with proper hold of the sights (not covering up the target and using a hold on an imaginary point above the target) and very careful attention to the basics.

As I said, most people that are moderately passable shooters can be brought up to speed in a few minutes to at least ring the plate and believe its possible. Like anything, the more you do it the luckier you get. Before I both got bored with it and had other life matters to attend to I shot maybe 3500 rds in it (g19), the majority at 200-300 yards. This is with about 40 years of messing with shooting longer distances off and on.

Really looking forward to doing extended range shooting with the percussion pistols, Ive mostly shot them at 75 yards and in for whatever reason. The Dragoon should be very good.

 

[45D]

Mike, I don’t know if you caught this thread restoring a cam on an 1860 hammer

and Mr. Leland certainly doesn’t need my defense but I’m not seeing any lack of mechanical aptitude here.

Bad Karma, I'm all in that thread so yes I've seen it. I'm of the opinion that "equipment" doesn't make a "mechanical wizard".

I've done a lot of cam replacements , offered techniques for cam / bolt arm interface setups (trying to help along).
I've explained the reasons for arbor correction, the problems it solves along with the harmonics (which is very important) transmission to alleviate the destructive secondaries. I've offered much only to be called basically a lier.

Anyone that would say the "fix" doesn't . . . and harmonics/ mechanical connection doesn't matter . . . I would have to say they aren't serious or just plain don't understand how mechanical things work.

I just know that with well over 850 revolvers with about 80% being open top revolvers . . . I know how to fix an open top revolver and like I said, it ain't a $200 wedge.

Aptitude - a natural ability or talent. Quickness in understanding or learning.
Websters (1988)

Mike

 

[Relic shooter]

Alrghty, then...


Can you explain how reaming is done, or provide a link, please? Thank you.

My Preferred Revolver Chamber Re-Sizing Option..
Over the past 50 I've greatly increased revolver accuracy on numerous percussion & cartridge revolvers by increasing chamber size by one-half thousands over the bore size by using a 6" long piece of brass rod that I've hacksawed a 1" long slot in one end to hold the abrasive cloth.
Chamber reamers are ideal if you want to invest money in the various sizes needed & have a drill press setup to do the job correctly.
I evenly wrap the cloth around the rods slotted end so it fits tight in the chamber & use a drill to accurately re-size the forward 1/2" of each chamber & checking progress with a caliper or snap gage & micrometer.
The majority of repro percussion revolvers have very shallow rifling so for example if my revolver has a .451 bore diameter I will increase the cylinder's chamber size to one-half thousands oversize & use a .457 diameter pure lead ball to shave-off more of a lead ring & provide more surface contact.
Original Colt & Remington revolvers have much deeper rifling & progressive twist rifling. The barrels on these revolvers have almost zero twist at the rear third of the barrel, this feature allows the proper sized ball or slug to fully seat & engage rifling before it engages the faster twist in the barrel & handle heavy loads with greater accuracy.
Please note; I do not recommend this procedure to anyone unless they are comfortable working with tools & close tolerances.
***PICTURES are worth a thousand words so I do highly recommend that revolver enthusiasts checkout the numerous percussion revolver tuning procedure videos by BLACKIE on Utube..
relic shooter

 

[M. De Land]

Bad Karma, I'm all in that thread so yes I've seen it. I'm of the opinion that "equipment" doesn't make a "mechanical wizard".

I've done a lot of cam replacements , offered techniques for cam / bolt arm interface setups (trying to help along).
I've explained the reasons for arbor correction, the problems it solves along with the harmonics (which is very important) transmission to alleviate the destructive secondaries. I've offered much only to be called basically a lier.

Anyone that would say the "fix" doesn't . . . and harmonics/ mechanical connection doesn't matter . . . I would have to say they aren't serious or just plain don't understand how mechanical things work.

I just know that with well over 850 revolvers with about 80% being open top revolvers . . . I know how to fix an open top revolver and like I said, it ain't a $200 wedge.

Aptitude - a natural ability or talent. Quickness in understanding or learning.
Websters (1988)

Mike

No one thinks your lying or that your not skilled at revolver tuning , but no one knows every thing about anything but God himself and we all have room to learn. Actually I agree with you on almost everything that you have advocated except some of your thinking of arbor fit importance and some stress related stuff. It's just a difference of opinion from varied experience and things we've been taught .

 

[Relic shooter]

We are fortunate to have some very talented folks on this forum. At 80 yrs old I continue to learn new shooting & tuning techniques from younger members, goes to show we're never too old to learn.
P.S. Soon as I take & download a couple photos I'll provide tip on a handy revolver wedge removal & insertion tool I devised.

 

[Dude]

This is a great discussion!

 

[hanshi]

I've only owned two c&b revolvers. They were a Remmy 1858 and a Rogers & Spencer. Not much difference between their accuracy and that with modern sidearms. Five shots (5) in a 2" group at 25 yards with them both was about typical.

 

[M. De Land]

This is a great discussion!

I'm certainly enjoying it and testing what I'm hearing against my own experience and thinking . I've found over many years of gun work that there is almost always more than one way to do a job and taking a look at something I know works from a different perspective often yields improvement in method or deeper confidence in current practice. Either way is beneficial to ones knowledge .

 

[Relic shooter]

COLT STYLE REVOLVER WEDGE TOOL TIP;
In my opinion the manufacturer's of all Colt style revolvers should have included an easy to pack wedge tool similar to the simple one I designed.
The wedge tool is shown with my orig 1862 Colt, please excuse my poor quality photos to show the details.
The wedge tool is made from a 2 &1/2" long X 1/2" dia piece of brass rod so it will not mar the steel wedge or finish.
Tip end of the rod that contacts the barrel assembly is radiused & polished so the 90 degree lip easily pulls a tight wedge out without damage.
The blunt end of the brass rod has enough weight to tap & re-seat the wedge without damage.
Hope this helps..
Relic shooter

 

[M. De Land]

On short arbor guns I like to adjust the wedge depth with a feeler gauge between barrel and cylinder or with a gauge under the exterior under lip. The wedge I make is fit to the barrel slots tightly in the vertical and I use the butt of a screw driver handle to seat them or a rawhide mallet. They require a good grip with pliers and leather pad or a tap out from the offside with a brass punch to free them. I also don't believe finger pressure is enough to seat them so they will stay put over a long string of shots.
About the only time I think finger seating works with some degree of consistence is if the wedge already has some deform divots impressed into them from being to soft.
Soon as that happens the barrel/cylinder gap opens up and it's time for a new wedge of proper hardness.
Ease of setting consistent wedge depth is a good reason to end fit the arbor.

 

[PaulF70]

This is a great discussion!

You're welcome. I knew if I started a thread on why I can't shoot and then acted like a jerk when I got advice it would go places.

 

[45D]

On short arbor guns I like to adjust the wedge depth with a feeler gauge between barrel and cylinder or with a gauge under the exterior under lip.

This is why the wedge gets beaten up.

Soon as that happens the barrel/cylinder gap opens up and it's time for a new wedge of proper hardness.

Yap

Ease of setting consistent wedge depth is a good reason to end fit the arbor.

That's exactly right and you won't have to replace wedges anymore.
All mine have their original wedges in them and the latest one that I'm testing with the high power rounds is perfect.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

You're welcome. I knew if I started a thread on why I can't shoot and then acted like a jerk when I got advice it would go places.

That made me laugh ! I think learning to laugh at myself is one of the best gifts I've ever received from above !

 

[M. De Land]

This is why the wedge gets beaten up.

Yap

That's exactly right and you won't have to replace wedges anymore.
All mine have their original wedges in them and the latest one that I'm testing with the high power rounds is perfect.

Mike

Early Pietta's had some soft wedges as well as other parts.
I've found early Pietta's with soft triggers that would not hold there full cock notch edge when set up for target work and required making a new one of tool steel. I tried case hardening a couple of them with Kasenite , one trigger three times , and it still wouldn't hold and edge.
My guess is the steel was burned while heat treating at the factory.

 

[beardedhorse]

Are the gadgets that load your cylinder off frame worth investing in? Their sales gimmick is that all six or five cylinders are loaded with the same pressure or compression on the grains of powder. How do you know when to stop tightening the ball and wad or just ball on the powder?

 

[Stantheman86]

Early Piettas were nowhere near as good as they are now.

I literally shot one loose in less than a week in 2008.

I emailed Pietta and the rep emailed me back telling me they did not heat treat their barrels as it was not required for blackpowder. It appears that has changed.

 

[M. De Land]

Are the gadgets that load your cylinder off frame worth investing in? Their sales gimmick is that all six or five cylinders are loaded with the same pressure or compression on the grains of powder. How do you know when to stop tightening the ball and wad or just ball on the powder?

I made one and use it for target shooting my 58 Rem but usually use the barrel loader for open frame guns. although it works equally well for either. Here are some shots of it that may give you some helpful ideas should you elect to make one. It's just scrap metal I had around the shop and a valve spring I kept as spare parts.
The various shot angles will pretty much explain how it is constructed. The removable block on the upper right of the press body is a simple but very effective depth gauge so all chambers are exactly the same.
The one thing I would change if I had it to do over would be to lesson the link angle a bit which puts more linear load on the loading rod than is necessary although it works fine as is.
You may notice there is no adjustable alignment spud sticking up out of the base and that is on purpose as I found from experience none is needed. The brass seating plug in the end of the ram will find and center the ball in the chamber mouth by itself very quickly and the cylinder will not tilt as the ball is pressed in because the ratchet radius on the cylinder base is large enough diameter to prevent this.

 

[maillemaker]

If you are interested in maximizing accuracy, then you'll have to do a load workup. If you're interested in maximum bang, you will have to settle for what accuracy you get.

I have a Euroarms Remington 1858 Navy. Despite load workups, I never got good accuracy from it. Same with the Pietta Spiller and Burr.