Powder charge. How much powder do you use.

[Notchy Bob]

One factor that should be brought into the discussion is rate of twist. One turn in four feet (48") was very common back in the day. There was certainly some experimentation, but this rate of twist was very common. You see this in the literature, in surviving rifling benches, and in many antique rifles that have been thoroughly examined. I think it was really in the 1960's and seventies that newer muzzleloading shooters wanted to "improve" performance with heavier powder charges. With too much powder, a round ball won't engage the grooves properly, so a slower rate of twist is required. So, more powder requires a slower twist, and a slower twist may need more powder for best accuracy. On this forum, we see members insisting that a 48" twist is a "compromise," and they want a slower twist, possibly without understanding why.

With all of that said, the St. Louis Hawken mountain rifles, with a twist of one turn in 48", were reportedly very tolerant of different powder charges, including substantial ones. I think a lot may have to do with depth, width, and configuration of the grooves in addition to the rate of twist. Those old boys really knew what they were doing.

I'm not a big fan of heavy loads. I like to start with about one grain per caliber and move up (rarely down) to find the sweet spot.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[tenngun]

If you read journals from the western fur trade, the traders ordered both lead and powder by the pound. They generally ordered twice as much lead by weight as they did powder. Historians have concluded that their average charge for a rifle was one half ball weight in powder. The traders also ordered different "grades" of powder. I guess the big difference between then and now is that their life depended on it.

L and C carried powder in load boxes. Eight pounds of lead holding four pounds of powder.
If they had the 1803 in .54 that’s a hundred and ten grain charge or so, that’s ‘big’ and bigger than I shoot in a .54, but not a killer.
If they were shooting the .50(49) US contract rifle that’s 90 grains.
But most of the guns in their party was the .69 US Charley. Shot about a one ounce ball
Two hundred and twenty grains????
Uhmmmm
That would make you slap your mama
Just of note
A hundred and ten grains .54 in a 34” barrel will have an MV of 1758 fps
An eighty grain charge 1519 a 24% increase in velocity
At fifty yards the results are 1300 fps vs 1141 23% at one hundred yards it’s 1020 vs 941, 8% more

 

[pacanis]

Dang. I'm afraid to say now

When I was working on a load for my 20ga Fusil de Chasse 70gr of 3F seemed to work best with RB.
50yds

But in my .45 with 42" Colerain barrel I'm shooting 90gr of 3F with a RB. I just kept working my way up until the group opened, then settled on 90. Recoil seems light to me.
50yds. It drops about 3" at 100, but I can't find a pic of that for some reason. It must be in a different folder.

Other guns I'm trying to shoot what I've read. And is accurate.
60gr+filler in my 1859 Sharps
3@50 w/ scope

95gr of 2F in my Brown Bess (to account for priming and modern BP).
Nice kick. Still need to shoot it off a bench and get used to it to see what an accurate load might be, but I'm not expecting much. In that case I might throttle it down if it's only a 4" group gun/shooter combination.
So no pics of that one yet

 

[William Sublette]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

Your obviously never been charged by an enraged grizz, or Blackfoot.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

50 grains in my .50 cal for punching holes in paper or ringing steel. Good results out to 100 yds. Saves on powder too.

 

[morehops52]

well as I say to each hs own. I've always liked big charges and maxis. don't shoot RB. My former loads wer 110g for my 54 and 90 for my 50's. i've since backed down to 90 & 80 respectively.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Your obviously never been charged by an enraged grizz, or Blackfoot.




View attachment 192133

What's your point?

 

[user 55620]

Put the ball in your hand and cover it with powder to get the correct load. Hmm. I wonder why they make gloves in different sizes? Peoples hands are different sizes and a palm full of powder from my hand would be different to a palm full of powder from your hand. Whilst this may not be dangerous, it would certainly be a very inconsistant load.
A brass black powder measure would give a constant measure by volume would be a good starting point using data from a black powder loading book.

 

[Bobby MacAlphin]

I shot a big doe a few years ago with a 30" barrel Brown Bess Pedersoli at 30 yards , the .75 cal. round ball using 70 grains of fffg goex , went all the way through her and the exit hole was almost the size of a golf ball , I have also shot deer with my .50 cal. Flintlock Virginia type rifles with 42" barrels using 60 grains of fffg goex , so far they have all dropped in their tracks all shot at about 30 to 50 yards , I believe shot placement is of utmost importance , good shooting and hunting to you all !

 

[TexiKan]

Considering there are accuracy variables with each rifle, finding a load that helps achieve that end, we deviate from the general recommendations. I didn't think much about this until I read the Dutch Schoultz data and I followed his suggestions and I found my optimum load-70 grains in a .50 cal. Hawken. Now I doubt if that same load would work in my flintlock as I have yet to determine the best combination for it. Sure, I can go back to around 50 grains and probably be reasonably fine. Heck, I could lower the powder and lob in those shots, too. I would suspect my load would be different than that of the same manufactured gun owned by another who determined his best load.

 

[Newtire]

If you're just gathering information, then here's what works for me. In my .50 with a 1-70" twist, 70 gr. 3f or 80 gr. 2f was the most accurate load with a round ball.
As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

 

[GrandLakeHunter]

Put the ball in your hand and cover it with powder to get the correct load. Hmm. I wonder why they make gloves in different sizes? Peoples hands are different sizes and a palm full of powder from my hand would be different to a palm full of powder from your hand. Whilst this may not be dangerous, it would certainly be a very inconsistant load.
A brass black powder measure would give a constant measure by volume would be a good starting point using data from a black powder loading book.

Frank, I've not used this method but, I am familiar with it. One holds their palm up and flattened with the ball centered. You then trickle powder directly onto the ball until it is just covered. Size of one's hand shouldn't make a significant difference. This is done once then a measure is made to hold that amount for repeatability.

 

[Art Caputo]

Hunting loads:
40gr FFFG in my 40 LRB
70gr FFFG in my 45/50 LRB
80gr FFFG in my 54/58 LRB
70gr FFG in my 62 Fowler 1 1/16oz of 6 or 7.5 shot

 

[LME]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

You and I think the same. All my M.L. rifles in .54 cal. loves 80 grains, so have guns I worked on for others. Haven't had many .50 cal. come in but so far every one shot most accurate with 60 grains of powder. I start out with the load the manuel suggest and start going up 5 grains at a time until I see accuracy waning. I then back up five grains to stay off the ragged edge then I have a satisfied customer. If a six inch group at 50 yards is all you are looking for add more powder? What I want, over power is accuracy. As I said you and I are on the same page.

 

[tenngun]

Put the ball in your hand and cover it with powder to get the correct load. Hmm. I wonder why they make gloves in different sizes? Peoples hands are different sizes and a palm full of powder from my hand would be different to a palm full of powder from your hand. Whilst this may not be dangerous, it would certainly be a very inconsistant load.
A brass black powder measure would give a constant measure by volume would be a good starting point using data from a black powder loading book.

Hands are different, but a ball is a ball in that size.
Hold your hand or hard flat surface and pour powder over the middle of the ball till it’s deep enough to cover, it will be about 1/3 weight of tge ball. You won’t get the exact amount twice but pretty close

 

[Jedidiah]

View attachment 191957

Basically this shows the powder charge had to increase approx 50% for an add'l 100fps. Not for me. lower charges work fine.

 

[Jedidiah]

I used to shoot NSSA and used a .58 Zouave with 60 grs. It worked perfectly. Never felt the need for more. I try and use lower charges to reduce recoil and save powder. In my .50-.54's I use anywhere from 55gr -75 gr max depending on how far I am shooting that day. I almost always shoot under 100yds, usually under 75. Probably 50 or less is normal. Most times it seems I am reaching for the 65-65 gr measure!

 

[William Lincoln]

If hunting, sight-in about a week before the hunt. Do not just grab your gun and go to hunt.
Load your gun during the sight-in as you will at the hunt. Wild shots and endless tracking of
wounded animals results from failure to prepare for success. During off season, take the time
to work up your best most accurate loads WITH the projectile and powder you will be using.
Scout the area to be hunted--even if on your own land- well beforehand. Bring a container or
mason jar to pee in, especially on stand. If you have a wife that will not be with you, leave her
a gift as you go, to remind her that she is the "Real Dear" that you treasure the most.

 

[Kmcmichael]

I am more of a range guy and never shoot past 110 yards. My guns seem to shoot about the same with most loads. I sometimes keep groups within 3” at that distance. I settled on 80 g w 50 cal and 55 grns with .40 cal, all PRB.
I've experimented a lot and have shot some good groups with 20 grains in the .40 at 110 yards, albeit they were very low!
They are comfortable loads and I don’t see any need for more. The .50 load will kill a deer.
if I were shooting longer range, I might consider more powder.
Aflyer reading these strings I did the math. These work out to be about 40% over caliber.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

So one rule-of-thumb was as you wrote, and another is the shooter starts with grains equal to the caliber and increases by five grains or ten grains until a person standing about ten to twenty yards off to the side can hear the bullet "crack" as it goes downrange. THEN the shooter stops and checks the accuracy, and IF it's good, that's the load. This was the rule back when supply of lead and powder wasn't always an easy thing and it survived into the now, and in addition to using "just enough" powder to get the job done..., one school of thought was NOT to get a pass through shot so that the hunter could recover the ball and recast it in the future. James Fenimore Cooper's character Hawkeye in Last of The Mohicans chides Uncas for using too much powder more than once in that novel, and I think that's this same idea... that book was first published in 1826.

As for the unburned powder, there are lots of folks out there who were taught that if you shoot over snow and look at the bits that landed, you will see some of the powder unburned, and one time even a feller wrote about shooting over a white sheet, and he then took photos of the grains found on the sheet. Which proves in either case that granules that LOOKED like powder in an unburned state were recovered. You can't test the stuff that hit the snow since if it's powder it's now water damaged, and the guy with the sheet never tested the "powder" he caught on the sheet to see if it would still ignite. There are reasons why one would get flecks resembling unburned powder that were not due to the powder failing to burn because of the length of the barrel.

Part of the equation is the diameter of the barrel. 80 grains of 2Fg is a long column of powder in a .50 caliber barrel, but is short and wide in a 12 gauge barrel, and that might make a difference too.

I chose 70 grains of 3Fg for my .50. 60 Grains was the legal minimum for deer in my state. I figured that some over-eager-beaver of a DNR officer might just pull my charge and check that I didn't have more than one ball, and the minimum load, and I figured that 70 grains would mean if some of the powder stuck to the inside of the barrel, at least 60+ grains would be removed and I'd be OK. Further, there should be about one hundred loads of 70 grains in a pound, so that gave me a rough ballpark idea of how many shots I'd get per pound. Finally, the load shot very well. When I upgraded from a factory .50 to a built .54 I simply used the same bag and same powder charger, and found the load worked well in that rifle too, on paper, and knocked deer down too.

It was only later that I got interested in what it's MV was and such. I'm rather above the point that the old timers would tell me that my load was "cracking", as my load does better than 1500 fps. I think we sometimes get too wrapped-around-the-axel with some of the minutia. It's interesting but we need to remember a lot of excellent shots have been made and lots of game taken without any of that knowledge. Remember, part of the word "minutia" is the word "nut"...

LD