If you hunt with a percussion rifle there is nothing "non-traditional" about conical bullets. They were well known to be superior to round balls by the 1830's and had pretty much replaced the round ball by the end of Mr. Lincoln's war. All of my hunting has been with patched balls but I do recognize certain advantages to conicals. If I were considering hunting dangerous game I'd not consider anything but a heavy conical.
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Please document civilian use of conicals in 1830 inside the US by any widespread group!
There was some experimantal target use of conicals on the East coast by 1836 I believe. Most folks had never even seen one of these new fancy bullets.
You are attempting to use the exceptions to set the rules for the entire group. Never has worked, but it is a favorite tactic of the modern shooters! In my case, 1836 is outside the traditional time frame anyway!
There was some experimantal target use of conicals on the East coast by 1836 I believe. Most folks had never even seen one of these new fancy bullets.
You are attempting to use the exceptions to set the rules for the entire group. Never has worked, but it is a favorite tactic of the modern shooters! In my case, 1836 is outside the traditional time frame anyway!
bart_anastasi
40 Cal.
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Well I have to say I am not supprised. I thought this one would realy start a storm.
What you shoot is your business of course and I have never till recently shot anything less than a 54 thinking anthying less is just plinking.
However with your new rifle and some time I think you will notice some things once the dust settles.
1. Your Hawken with its double set trigers are addictive.
2. It shoots just as well as your more expensive in-line. The quality of the barrel is not any less than you Encore. Maybe even Better because of the triggers.
3. Ignition with a #11 mag cap will still give some click/bang delay which is because of the powder being slow not the cap being deficient.
4. Being a hammer gun will not reduce significantly accuracy or anything else.
5. I may be wrong about this but there used to be something called Double Balling. That is throwing a second in your case 490 ball on top of the first so even if people did not have huge access to conials there was a idea of geting more lead in the air. Hence if you were loaded for regulare sized game and a really bigger one came up whamo. that is a old (New York) mountain man term)
6. Sticking with a projetile that you know is in my opinion Period Correct in theory if not in pure practice.
But FWIW after you are done try a box of 375 Grain Maxi for a Dangorus Game bullet. Penatration A La King.
And no wiping between shots.
What you shoot is your business of course and I have never till recently shot anything less than a 54 thinking anthying less is just plinking.
However with your new rifle and some time I think you will notice some things once the dust settles.
1. Your Hawken with its double set trigers are addictive.
2. It shoots just as well as your more expensive in-line. The quality of the barrel is not any less than you Encore. Maybe even Better because of the triggers.
3. Ignition with a #11 mag cap will still give some click/bang delay which is because of the powder being slow not the cap being deficient.
4. Being a hammer gun will not reduce significantly accuracy or anything else.
5. I may be wrong about this but there used to be something called Double Balling. That is throwing a second in your case 490 ball on top of the first so even if people did not have huge access to conials there was a idea of geting more lead in the air. Hence if you were loaded for regulare sized game and a really bigger one came up whamo. that is a old (New York) mountain man term)
6. Sticking with a projetile that you know is in my opinion Period Correct in theory if not in pure practice.
But FWIW after you are done try a box of 375 Grain Maxi for a Dangorus Game bullet. Penatration A La King.
And no wiping between shots.
Snakebite
45 Cal.
Bart,
Refering to #6. I was thinking and this is probably adding gas to the fire, but are swaged round balls okay?? Or do they have to only be cast??? We're talking authenticity here, right? :bull:
Actaully I don't care. A round ball is a round ball as far as I'm concerned. But I can see someone making a point of swaged vs. cast.
For some reason I have a hard time finding pure lead to cast and when I have cast it's more for the fun/experience of it. Buying swaged balls just seems to be easier.
Some threads just go on far too long (of course I'm not helping any) and this may be one of them. But this forum is fun that's for sure. :hatsoff: to Claude and Zonie anyone else who keeps it going.
Chris
Refering to #6. I was thinking and this is probably adding gas to the fire, but are swaged round balls okay?? Or do they have to only be cast??? We're talking authenticity here, right? :bull:
Actaully I don't care. A round ball is a round ball as far as I'm concerned. But I can see someone making a point of swaged vs. cast.
For some reason I have a hard time finding pure lead to cast and when I have cast it's more for the fun/experience of it. Buying swaged balls just seems to be easier.
Some threads just go on far too long (of course I'm not helping any) and this may be one of them. But this forum is fun that's for sure. :hatsoff: to Claude and Zonie anyone else who keeps it going.
Chris
Mike Brooks
Cannon
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Well, before this thread gets canned.... :wink: I would like to know if there is a problem with nipple burn out shooting these big heavy conicals?
The guys shooting the long range bullet matches at Friendship were telling me they have to use platinum lined nipples else they burn out in 3 or 4 shots and accuracy goes to hell.
These guys are shooting the traditional muzzleloading type Rigby bullet guns with traditional peep sights and all kinds of trick stuff.
I asked about flint guns to shoot in this match and they tell me you can't keep a vent liner in them to last more than a couple shots.
The guys shooting the long range bullet matches at Friendship were telling me they have to use platinum lined nipples else they burn out in 3 or 4 shots and accuracy goes to hell.
These guys are shooting the traditional muzzleloading type Rigby bullet guns with traditional peep sights and all kinds of trick stuff.
I asked about flint guns to shoot in this match and they tell me you can't keep a vent liner in them to last more than a couple shots.
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Interesting to see different views on bullet history and how it relates to the definition of “Traditional” shooting/hunting. Here are a few thoughts that I have developed from my recreation reading on firearms history.
If you define “Traditional” as pre 1820 flintlocks or earlier forms or ignition, then by all means the most widely utilized bullet was a round ball or multiple round balls.
Elongated cylindrical bullets, although available prior to their adoption by the US military, were not used by the general public until just before the Civil War. I would certainly consider them appropriate for use in a “Traditional” caplock rifle.
Plastic is a 20th century petroleum based product. The widespread use in sporting firearms was pretty much limited to shotgun wads until the mid 1980’s when plastic sabots were marketed for use in muzzleloading firearms. Powerbelts with their plastic skirt would fall into this same category.
I would think that any of the full bore size lead bullets such as the T/C maxi-ball and maxi-hunter, Hornady Great Plains and many others that are similar would be considered traditional projectiles for a muzzleloading caplock rifle.
Just my two cents and not worth any more than that.
If you define “Traditional” as pre 1820 flintlocks or earlier forms or ignition, then by all means the most widely utilized bullet was a round ball or multiple round balls.
Elongated cylindrical bullets, although available prior to their adoption by the US military, were not used by the general public until just before the Civil War. I would certainly consider them appropriate for use in a “Traditional” caplock rifle.
Plastic is a 20th century petroleum based product. The widespread use in sporting firearms was pretty much limited to shotgun wads until the mid 1980’s when plastic sabots were marketed for use in muzzleloading firearms. Powerbelts with their plastic skirt would fall into this same category.
I would think that any of the full bore size lead bullets such as the T/C maxi-ball and maxi-hunter, Hornady Great Plains and many others that are similar would be considered traditional projectiles for a muzzleloading caplock rifle.
Just my two cents and not worth any more than that.
Kentuckywindage
62 Cal.
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Whos give a rats arse weather the conical uses a plastic skirt. When you are sighting in for HUNTING and you find this type of conical shoots better in your rifle, Use it! I know at the rendezvous' i have gone to as a guest, you are allowed to use PRB only. And i agree with that. However, when it comes to hunting and the regulations that the state has, i dont care if the guy is shooting a new conical, sabot or what ever. If you're allowed to use a .40- .45cal PRB in your state during muzzleloading season and your rifle will shoot it accurately and you want to use that projectile, Use it. If you are from a state such as me where the projectile needs to be atleast 170 grains, You look to either a .50cal or you simply use a conical that is legal. I use a 225 powerbelt in my .45cal. Not because they load easier, not because i dont like patches. I simply use them because they are legal to use and i prefer shooting my .45 due to longer distance i can shoot.
I really cant see why this topic has gone off as much as it has. maxiball- great plains- maxi hunter are not traditional IMO.
The way i see it, PRB for shooting events and for the hunters that can use them legally in their state.
I really cant see why this topic has gone off as much as it has. maxiball- great plains- maxi hunter are not traditional IMO.
The way i see it, PRB for shooting events and for the hunters that can use them legally in their state.
I use conicals myself and carry a barrel sighted for them. That does not mean they are PC for before 1840. I never said anyone should not use them either. I said they are not PC and that is the base of the bias against them here.
Now, when you come to traditional forum to discuss shooting plastic, perhaps the bias you feel is not against the use of the bullet!
Now, when you come to traditional forum to discuss shooting plastic, perhaps the bias you feel is not against the use of the bullet!
"If you hunt with a percussion rifle there is nothing "non-traditional" about conical bullets"
if your choice of conical is a modern design and not close to what there was in the past then it is not a traditional projectile, very few of todays bullets meet the mark because they are better, balisticaly more efficient, they are a result of modern tech. just like shooting a modern large bore centerfire
if your choice of conical is a modern design and not close to what there was in the past then it is not a traditional projectile, very few of todays bullets meet the mark because they are better, balisticaly more efficient, they are a result of modern tech. just like shooting a modern large bore centerfire
Kentuckywindage said:
Whenever you enter a forum and go out of your way to tell the members, "I don't use what most of you use", you can expect a reaction. :grin:
Guest
Like I said before,"Use a 30-30 and be done with it." Why screw up the primitive hunting season in your state for the guys that it was intended for?
Open iron sights, patched round ball, percussion or flint. That's where it started anyway. It's getting to the point where almost anything goes in primitive hunting season.
Open iron sights, patched round ball, percussion or flint. That's where it started anyway. It's getting to the point where almost anything goes in primitive hunting season.
Kentuckywindage
62 Cal.
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In your state it may say Primitive, In mine i have to follow the books rules and go by what they say is legal. When i go muzzleloading during muzzleloading season, im sharing that season with bow hunters and early centerfire hunters.
So the word Primitive doesnt exist for me.
So the word Primitive doesnt exist for me.
I can't really help Mike. All the times I know of a nipple burning out and causing accuracy problems I was shooting roundball. I don't think I have had a Hotshot nipple burn out ever, and I switch my guns to them pretty quickly since I shoot a lot of pyrodex. Also, most of my shooting over the years has been with pyrodex, so I can't really say for black powder. Black and 777 both will start to blow a hammer back to halfcock before pyrodex does. I would assume there are differences in how long a nipple would last with each caused by the different pressure curves.
"I really cant see why this topic has gone off as much as it has. maxiball- great plains- maxi hunter are not traditional IMO."
Exactly, that is why when folks try to say they are, feathers get ruffled, this happens when you strive in " keeping tradition alive" unfortunately some states have hunters backed into a corner with stupid regs making a traditionaly geared hunt pretty tough......or a non traditional hunt to easy..
Exactly, that is why when folks try to say they are, feathers get ruffled, this happens when you strive in " keeping tradition alive" unfortunately some states have hunters backed into a corner with stupid regs making a traditionaly geared hunt pretty tough......or a non traditional hunt to easy..
Blizzard of '93
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on #5 'bart' you are correct and there are hunters (black bear here in the N.C. mountains) that still use it. I have hunted with a group (neither time I went did we get a bear) that carried firearms from .22 mag up to double-balled .45 BP rifles. Me I carried my ROA with a max charge and conical slug. double-ball loads are basically a close range load, 25 or so yards but good for a treed or cornered bear.
"Actaully I don't care. A round ball is a round ball as far as I'm concerned. But I can see someone making a point of swaged vs. cast"
I think most see it as what the end result is not how you got there, few barrel are forged welded and most guns even the custom ones are made with the use of electricity or petroleum power, trying to say a swaged RB is not traditional vs a cast ball is getting pretty....how was the ladel made that the modern balls are poured from...what heat source melted the lead, it can go on and on common sense and a true feel for the traditional side of the sport usually finds a logical stopping point while the other side will spin anything as fast as it will go to debunk the traditional aspect and justify using the term traditional in a more or less selfserving manner.
I think most see it as what the end result is not how you got there, few barrel are forged welded and most guns even the custom ones are made with the use of electricity or petroleum power, trying to say a swaged RB is not traditional vs a cast ball is getting pretty....how was the ladel made that the modern balls are poured from...what heat source melted the lead, it can go on and on common sense and a true feel for the traditional side of the sport usually finds a logical stopping point while the other side will spin anything as fast as it will go to debunk the traditional aspect and justify using the term traditional in a more or less selfserving manner.
As for a "what would Boone, Crockett, Johnson, Lewis&Clark etc. have used" question, my answer would be a round ball.
Why?
Because that is what their forefathers used.
Because lead weighs a lot and carrying hundreds of pounds of it was a problem. To most effectively use the limited weight of lead one has to transport the round ball will create the greatest number of shots per pound.
Because a round ball is less likely to exit the critter which makes the likelihood of recovering the shot ball from the animal greater. Recast into another ball it can be used again.
The reduced comparative recoil of the ball vs a conical is less likely to over stress the gunstock resulting in less stock splitting.
The persons mentioned were real hunters who seldom took long range shots so the inefficiency of the round ball at ranges over 100 years was not an issue.
The patched roundball can be loaded in a fouled bore unlike a conical which can easily become jammed half way down a fouled bore.
I could come up with some more reasons but I think that will do for starters. :grin:
zonie
Why?
Because that is what their forefathers used.
Because lead weighs a lot and carrying hundreds of pounds of it was a problem. To most effectively use the limited weight of lead one has to transport the round ball will create the greatest number of shots per pound.
Because a round ball is less likely to exit the critter which makes the likelihood of recovering the shot ball from the animal greater. Recast into another ball it can be used again.
The reduced comparative recoil of the ball vs a conical is less likely to over stress the gunstock resulting in less stock splitting.
The persons mentioned were real hunters who seldom took long range shots so the inefficiency of the round ball at ranges over 100 years was not an issue.
The patched roundball can be loaded in a fouled bore unlike a conical which can easily become jammed half way down a fouled bore.
I could come up with some more reasons but I think that will do for starters. :grin:
zonie
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