PRB or lead conical?

[Eterry]

I don't have one yet I'm in the process of figuring out which one I'm going to get. I know I'm going to get a .54, right now it's between the lyman trade and the lyman GPR. I'm leaning towards the GPR. I know I'll be limited to PRB with the 1/66 twist , but all I've seen and read is they are extremely accurate. I think I'll pick the GPR that will shoot one bullet extremely accurately, versus the trade that shoots both styles, 1/48 twist, but possibly not as accurately. Going tomorrow to hold a few I'll see how they feel

You don't have to have a fast twist to make a conical shoot... my buffalo hunter has a 1-66 twist, and it places 3 shots practically touching side by side at 50 yards. The minis are real snug, which helps with accuracy and keeping it where it belongs. I notice a lot of Apples to oranges comparisons here.

Here's the bottom line IMHO. The conical is hands down a better bullet past 50 yards. If the round ball was such a wonderful long range killer, then ammo companies would load it in their product line.

Some people refuse to accept facts and physics... if Dan'l Boone was given a 30-06 with 165gr Spitzers; he'd have kissed Ole Betsy goodbye.

 

[Eterry]

And i think the back handed comments about being a better hunter are pretty chicken sh*t...
This guy come on here looking for advice, you tell him to become a better hunter... in a slightly veiled way.
He's not hunting the back 40 where he can go every weekend. He said he'd have the chance once every 8 years to hunt elk. Instead of getting a 300 magnum and busting one across a canyon, he wants to use a muzzle loader. That in itself is admirable. So he comes on here, no bravado, no pomp and circumstance, asking serious questions...

And your answer is... use a prb and learn to be a better hunter.....
YOU GUYS HAVE A LOT OF NERVE!

 

[azmntman]

I was sure I had plenty of nerve. That was proven incorrect in a deer blind last month. BTW I have reviewed the posts and myself saw nothing in poor taste :surrender: :idunno:

 

[nkbj]

But some were less filling. :rotf:

This afternoon I shot .395 round ball out of my 16" twist rifle. What? Why would I do such a thing?!!
Because it's fun and I enjoy it.

 

[tenngun]

A round ball for me. Easy to cast, turns wood land creatures French ( turns deer to venison :thumbsup: to sir Walter Scott), shoots well, and fits my guns.
Is it as good as a conical? Well you can’t get deader then dead.
Mind you conicals have their place and guns. From cr 1850 ml made to shoot conicals were common. Should you own a gun made for one that’s what you should feed it. I don’t have one.

 

[azmntman]

I have an enfield. I shoot more PRB than conicals (mainly cuz Im a cheap skate, still aint allowed to EVER again cast and they are cheaper than conicals by FAR! :v

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was sure I had plenty of nerve. That was proven incorrect in a deer blind last month. BTW I have reviewed the posts and myself saw nothing in poor taste :surrender: :idunno:

I agree. Comments made were intended to help. And, advising practice is applicable to everyone, especially beginners.
BTW, the makers of modern ml's, the "no-no" kind are more into marketing than anything else. Those big bullets can be promoted with a lot more images of macho ego than can a traditional prb. Facts just can't seem to change the mindset of the 'bigger is better' crowd. Did somebody say something about 'traditional'? Or has that concept fallen out of favor?

 

[Eddie Southgate]

.54 cal and PRB if I could only use 1 .

Eddie

 

[pkarr]

.54 prb has always got it done for me,antelope, mule deer,elk and 1 pretty good sized hog.none more than 100 yards. 90 gr 3f and prb.

 

[rodwha]

As some styles of conicals are designed to more easily load in a fouled barrel and are undersized and able to move off of the powder charge I'd look into ones that do not, which is why I began with a Lee REAL. I don't want to be required to check that my projectile is seated firmly before I take a shot. A PRB stays put as well, as does a paper patched bullet such as what Idahoron uses. I'm not certain about the various Maxi's.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm not certain about the various Maxi's.

In my early years of shooting ml rifles I once, repeat once, tried using a maxi in my TC not-really-a-hawken-hawken. Loaded in morning, carried around for most of the day then decided to check if the maxi was seated before shooting it out. Wasn't seated :shocked2: it has slid off the charge towards the muzzle. Never again. Sold the mould and have used prb only ever since.

 

[MSW]

an interesting question... although i am loathe to restrict to one-of-this or one-of-that (would you hold a carpenter to one saw or one hammer, a plumber to one wrench?) i would posit the following:

(to quote my son-in-law, a second year law student) "It depends"

primarily on the rate of twist of your rifle. As a general rule, if you are trying to stabilise a heavier projectile, you need to spin it more quickly as it goes through the air. Therefore, your rate of twist to keep a maxiball or similar conical projectile stable in flight will be much faster than the RoT of a gun designed to shoot PRB. The MaxiBall was, if i remember correctly, developed by Thompson Center, designed to be fired through their Hawken- like rifle. (I still have the Renegade which i bought back in the early eighties ... it still shoots straighter than i can hold it.) This design sports a 1:48 twist, that is, one revolution in 48 inches. This was a compromise, so their barrels could shoot both PRB and their conical MaxiBall. Some hunters would simply not be convinced of the potency of a PRB, and thus the marketing gurus at T/C won out and the 1:48 barrels hit the market. Later on, "roundball barrels" became available - i think they have about a 1:60 rate of twist. While it's on the list, i've yet to try one out.

I will confess that i have never tried the MaxiBall in any of my T/C rifles. (By the way, the grooves are a bit shallower than one would find in a barrel designed for PRB, but that's for another time.) I am told that the accuracy is pretty good with the MaxiBall, but i've never felt the need to try it out.

So

if this is a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, and you're having a rifle built to that specific purpose, i would recommend a fast twist barrel with slightly shallower grooves set up for conicals. This will set you back some pretty serious coin. You may want to contact Charles Burton at FCI barrels, or Bobby Hoyt. Then you will need to determine which weight of conical will give you the best performance. (I assume that you are working with a .54 caliber gun here - i would be hesitant to hunt anything bigger than white tail with a .50.)

If, on the other hand, you are going to be able to hunt big game on a more routine basis, you would probably want to stick with a .54 rifle using PRB. Use Dutch Schoultz' method to get the best accuracy.

Hope this helps. There you go: free advice and doubtless well worth the cost.

Good luck with your project, and good luck with your hunt.

Make Good Smoke

 

[rodwha]

Not really traditional but the stainless Lyman Deerstalker has the 1:48" twist but with shallow grooves meant for conicals and unmentionables. These rifles are that expensive at all.

At roughly 7.5 lbs it's a nice weight for all day carrying, which is one reason I chose this rifle (mine is the blued version with deeper grooves for PRB). A recoil pad, which comes on it eats up recoil pretty well. I expected the 320 grn REAL pushed by 70 grns of energetic 3F to have a bite much like a .45-70 Gov't, but it didn't. It also has fiber optic sights which I don't care much for and intend on replacing.

With a stated .502" land it claims a .510" groove for the stainless model and .520" for the blued version and Trade Rifle.

 

[nkbj]

Well, there's dead and then there can be deader as far as choosing between round ball and maxis. About forty years ago our #1 rule afield was head shots only. I saw my big brother shoot a little bit low on a running cotton tail with his .54 Renegade. He was used to round ball with his neatsfoot oil pillow tickin' and paper over a max charge of FFg.
He'd loaded up a maxi. Way much deader.

 

[Oregononeshot]

I didn't find anybody's comments rude! Thanks for all your input! Im leaning towards a certain gun, not totally made up my mind yet, but close!

 

[52Bore]

I don't think the trade/Hawkin style hunting rifles of the America's in the 1800 used conicals in the 500gr range that I'm used to (I may be wrong), I believe very, very few may have been made by makers such as Billinghurst, etc... few. The conicals rifles were perfected by the British in the mid-1800. It seem's America went from PRB to Cartridges.
Also, the butt of the Trade/Hawkin were crescent as the British were wide, tall and flatter in comparison.
A side not on trajectory in the 54cal of this discussion - with 100 yd ZERO, both PRB and Conical as described before have the same trajectory at 50 & 125yds.
I think many of us have stated you can get either to shoot well - it seems it's really your preference.
Good luck and keep us posted..

 

[Rifleman1776]

with 100 yd ZERO, both PRB and Conical as described before have the same trajectory at 50 & 125yds.

That is fodder for a whole nuther debate. :shocked2:
Actually, the word "trajectory" should be substituted with "point of impact" or poi. At 50 yards the ball/bullet is still rising towards it's highest trajectory apex and then at 100, or so, yards it has fallen back down to the (near) same elevation. Only a lot of shooting can tell you what your gun is doing at those ranges.

 

[52Bore]

The PRB and Conical really are nearly identical in trajectory..
Here is what Hornady shows. (sight being 1.0" above bore)
Both 54 caliber.
PRB - 120gr @1700pfs, 230gr PRB
Conical - 90gr @1300pfs, 475gr bullet
Yards, PRB, Conical
0, -1.0", -1.0"
10, -0.1, 0.2
20, 0.7, 1.1
30, 1.4, 1.8
40, 1.9, 2.3
50, 2.2, 2.6
60, 2.3, 2.6
70, 2.1, 2.3
80, 1.7, 1.8
90, 1.0, 1.1
100, 0, 0
110, -1.3, -1.3
120, -3.0, -3.0
130, -5.1, -4.9

50-60 yards seems to be the maximum height of trajectory for these 54cal projectiles with a 100 yard ZERO.

 

[Dr5x]

MSW describes just about ever consideration in volved with elongated projectiles.
The problem with the elongated bulet and your rifle is whether it fits or not, all of considerations seeming OK. There are no adjustments that I an aware of.
If they don't perform well, what can you adjust. My thought would be to try different projectiles from different moulds till you find one that gives you the seal you require.
This might also be a place where an over powder wad might serve well.
With the patched round ball there are a number of things you can do to make adjustments.

An old Colorado Guide wrote me at some length about his feeling that the round ball tended to ricochet around inside the deer where the heavier slug tended to go through and through expendinits energy through but als beyond the deer. Not my opinion, his

Dutch

 

[nkbj]

Dutch, on trying to adjust a bullet bigger...
Well, the mold can be finagled a bit, even with a thin slip of paper between the blocks. I know that sounds terrible but the bullet has to get slammed in the nether parts by the powder charge hard enough to make it squirm all over the place and fill up the barrel anyhow.
Or the mold can be lapped some to increase the bullet diameter.
Or you can patch the bullet to close fit the bore or bigger and then swage it back down.
Or use enough card wads to prevent flow-by gas cutting and really jack up the charge.

But it all depends on what equipment a body has to work with that says what they gotta do.
Like a barrel maker once told me, deep groove barrels will shoot a long bullet just fine.

What I've learned though is that every one of them barrels is different. :hatsoff:

All this reminds me of Ned Roberts telling about by the 1840's the marksmen being all up about the (slightly) elongated bullets. Reading about it I can't help but wonder how many of them got to shooting something that looked about like later revolver bullets, long enough barrel contact to lessen their alignment problems but not needing faster twists.