PRB penetration vs. velocity

[roundball]

The deer with a broadhead through the heart had by far the longest distance traveled before going down.

You didn't mention actual distances from the article but it implies a heart shot animal goes a long way...has never been the case with me...every PRB heart shot deer has gone down in sight of me.
They usually make a 10-20yd sprint and crash, on a couple of occasions actually running headlong into trees as they died on their feet.

You take out the pump, blood circulation stops immediately, they're dead in seconds.

By contrast, lung shot deer can cover a lot of ground because the blood circulation system is still working...and depending on where the lungs are hit, the longer it can take for the lungs to fill up with blood, shutting off the blood/oxygen processing, until they eventually suffocate.

As far as I'm concerned, if I miss the heart I've made a bad shot...its very small and down very low, a lot lower than a lot of people think.
I believe a lot of folks 'think' they've hit the heart when they've really only hit lungs...at least that's how I see it...OMMV.

 

[hanshi]

I've basically noticed the same thing with deer I've shot much like you talked about. If it lives 4 seconds it can put quite a few yards between you and it. It is, however, quickly and 100% fatal.

I find myself having a somewhat different view concerning lung shots. Virtually all the deer that I've had drop in their tracks (excluding neck/spine shots) were hit with a lung shot. This has been my experience with both modern and primitive weapons. I have a theory, part scientific, part chi. If you are INHALING and take a hit, punch, shot, etc, you're likely to go down. If you're EXHALING when hit you still have a little fight left to give. Switch that to deer and I believe it holds true to a great extent. I base this observation/theory on my experience as a boxer and lifetime in martial arts training. Will I swear to this in court? Well...er, NO! Just my experienced opinion (which is worth, oh, $0.10 or a little less, maybe $0.03. :idunno:

I'm with you on the short run. I most always see or hear them crash just seconds after the hit. I've found them draped over logs, in deep gulleys, creeks and hung up in brush/briars and brambles. Never, never far from me regardless.

 

[Bill Hall]

I agree with your version of the lung shot, they hardly move at all. When they get hit, they get a funny look on their face, maybe turn sideways or take a couple of steps backwards, then do that sideways sidestep as they're falling. I remember one cow elk that went forward about 10 feet, turned around and returned to the spot where she was hit, then fell over. That's about the most travel I've ever seen with a lung shot. Bill

 

[hoochiepapa]

Other than a neck shot, I have to agree. A double lung puts 'em down right away.

 

[Roy]

unless you smack/shatter the off side leg bone.. then they can go about 70 yards or so.. atleast that was my experience. :v

 

[rabjr]

I've said it a few times before here and I guess I'll say it again. I've shot a hell of a lot of deer over the years with bullets, slugs, balls and broadheads and my findings with heart shots seems to be a little different than some stated here. I've also witnessed quite a few others have heart shot. Until recently, think it was a small 3 point or forkhorn two or three years ago I took with a broadhead that ran and piled up at about 25 yards, I never had or saw a heart shot deer drop within 50 yards of me, most ran closer to 75 yards. That 50 to 75 yards seemed to be the range they always ran that I witnessed and a handful even ran beyond that but not any I shot. I'm sure there were some that were nervous and alert but most were calm doing their thing and had no idea what was coming. I found with a good double lung shot most deer piled up before reaching 50 yards, most within 30 to 50 yards for me and some didn't do more than a hop skip and a jump. I absolutely agree with hanshi, taking a deers air away from him has proven to be the better shot for me over the years....

 

[roundball]

"...I've said it a few times before here and I guess I'll say it again...."

"...taking a deers air away from him has proven to be the better shot for me over the years..."

It may simply be that there's a lot of subjectivity or semantics to this.

For example, if the heart stops pumping blood...you HAVE taken the deer's air away from him...the oxygen flow to the brain is shut off instantly and I can't see anything that can be debated about that...oxygen only gets to the brain in the bloodstream.

But bottom line, as long as mine keep dropping in sight like they do, I'll keep shutting off the pump.

:wink:

 

[rabjr]

Thats right, do whatever works for you.

 

[longcruise]

You didn't mention actual distances from the article but it implies a heart shot animal goes a long way...has never been the case with me...every PRB heart shot deer has gone down in sight of me.

Your putting huge pressure on my memory capacity :haha:

The data was presented as averages and also with the farthest traveled and the shortest traveled. This was a long time ago! :shocked2: I think the study was presented in Field & Stream or one of the other hook and bullet mags.

So, I recall that the longest traveled heart shot deer traveled a bit over 1000 yards. But, one animal does not make a study! From there, my memory only serves to state that overwhelmingly the heart shot deer traveled the farthest.

One thing about the heart shot is that many heart shots will also incude lung damage. The last autopsy I did on a heart shot animal was an elk where my ball had sliced the heart open on the top side and had also penetrated both lungs.

That elk went about 100 yards, but did it in 4 or 5 seconds. Just one case and not enough to draw any conclusions from.

 

[roundball]

One thing about the heart shot is that many heart shots will also incude lung damage. The last autopsy I did on a heart shot animal was an elk where my ball had sliced the heart open on the top side and had also penetrated both lungs.

No question about that...the heart is right there with the bottom of the lungs...getting to my suggestion that subjectivity / semantics may be involved here...if I'm really trying for precise broadside heart shots I am probably also driving through the bottom lobes of both lungs on either side of it...getting the best of both worlds.

When I think about my bow hunting days and think of a "lung shot" I think of a shot "up in the lungs"...no heart involved...and remember that unintentional high lung shots I made left me with a 50-75yd tracking job, vs. a low heart shot where deer would swap ends, try to run back the way they came, and fall in sight.

That elk went about 100 yards, but did it in 4 or 5 seconds. Just one case and not enough to draw any conclusions from.

To be fair, my only frame of reference is east cost whitetails, not the larger, possibly stronger more durable elk in case that enters into it.
And its thick where I hunt...no place for a deer to open up and run flat out...its a sprint dodging through trees, over logs, around bushes, etc...4-5 seconds is only the time it takes for you and I to inhale/exhale...or for the smoke to clear after a shot...and as it does I can usually see them flashing back and forth through trees, then either see them fall outright or in low light, see a big flash of white from their belly where they went down...but in sight.

I love going after them for sure...7 more months...LOL

 

[longcruise]

An elk does not cover ground much faster than a whitetail, if it is even any faster at all!

I kinda prefer the "up in the lungs" shot. It seems to me that if no bone is hit the animal does not bolt off as quickly as when a rib, shoulder or leg bone is hit. Certainly that's true with a broadhead where some of them act like they did not know they were hit!

The elk I described was hit dead center in a rib going in and between the ribs on the other side. She took off immediately in a wild all out run and never shed an drop of blood that I could find until the last few feet before going down.

I have seen so many different reactions to the hit on various animals hit by CFs, arrows, balls and conicals to think that none are completely predictable.

 

[larry wv]

Deer go farther for me on heart shots than lung shots. I never try for the heart over the lungs. Larry Wv

 

[mnbearbaiter]

We have a shot we use in our camp called "The Works" :thumbsup: Its done when still hunting cedar swamps, or anytime we are on the ground with our quarry! We all shoot the same.. we "Cut" our target in half with our front bead! Therefore the trajectory of our guns is actually a little higher than our actual hold! What this does for us is gives us a few more yards before overhold is required, and it helps use see our target and not block it out! What is "The Works" you ask..well its the total destruction of the helmet of the heart and the #$@ of the lungs! With the knuckleball nature of the round ball its deadly on any animal! The ribs tend to thin out when they get lower on the chest of an animal which is great for penetration, and the lower you vitally hit an animal the better, because generally with round balls full penetration isnt a guarantee and a higher chest hit requires the blood to fill up internally to the entrance hole to produce a good bloodtrail!

 

[tg]

These are very good examples of a gtreta mnay different experiences of various types of shots and the different results which ust shows what is probably very small variables in all the exampl es that we simply do not realize or see or are aware of, everyone cannot be right nor can everyone be wrong, I have seen the same ting when helping folks find Deer hit will ball and conical usually the most problimatic variable I could identify was distance and the inability to jufge it very closely and the resulting slower death usually due to a missplace projectile due to misjudged distance.Just some added thoughts to the puzzle about what so many different opinions

 

[illuveatar]

I keep reading about folks here not using the "stout loads" (100+ grains) but the loads described still seem heavy to me. When working up a load for hunting deer at what point should I sacrifice accuracy for power.

Specifically, what's to be done with my .50cal that prefers 45 grains of 3F with its PRBs?

I can put that ball anywhere I want but does the load have enough power to satisfactorily take down a whitetail at say 80 yards ?

Edit: I've never taken a deer with my muzzleloader but I've got plenty of practice with my 30-06. Obviously I've never had to consider penetration with an '06 round which is still cruising with nearly 1000 ft.-lbs. at 500 yds.

 

[Walks with fire]

Wow; 45 grains in a .50 seems a bit light for shooting deer. I know my 21" barreled .50 has taken a couple with a 80 grain load but results were not real good. Barrel length sure makes a difference in my opinion.

If it were me I would try a tighter ball/patch combo in that rifle to see if I could get the velocity up. In a long barrel I think 70 grains of 3f is what I would stive for. I used to shoot 60 grains of 2f with my friends for target practice and that carbine barrel is a tack driver with that charge but people standing to the side said they could see the ball in flight. It would probably kill a deer with a heart/lung shot under 50 yards though.

 

[aeatwood]

That is a pistol charge. It will probably kill any deer inside of 50 yards with a lung shot. May not make it thru the far side, but skin is stretchy.