Pure lead or Alloy in rifles

[stubshaft]

I had observed on another forum that some of the ML shooters claim to get equal accuracy using hardened (alloyed) lead balls.

I had tried in the past and got poor accuracy compared to pure lead. My belief was that the patching material did not grip the hardened ball sufficiently.

I have used balls cast with WW in my smoothies and have not seen any difference in accuracy.

I am curious if anyone else has had any experience with this.

 

[hanshi]

When I cast hard lead ball it's with WW. They do very well in my smoothbore and excel in loads without patches. With patches they also do quite well. I've tried them in a couple of rifles and they did about as well as soft lead prb. I loaded them the same as the soft lead ball.

 

[mooman76]

Harder balls worked as well for me. I used to use harder lead because that's what I had. They do come out slightly larger so your patch material may need to be changed.

 

[19 16 6]

Harder balls worked as well for me. I used to use harder lead because that's what I had. They do come out slightly larger so your patch material may need to be changed.

This ^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Pure lead for patched balls (takes up the rifling better).

Harder lead if that's all you can find.

I used wheel-weight lead in a smoothbore for years because that is what I could find.If you can get it down the muzzle it will come back out OK.

 

[19 16 6]

Don't know why you keep on thinking that the ball takes up the rifling.
The patch does that.
O.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Indeed...

""One of the greatest essentials of accuracy is that the ball, or bullet, be delivered from the muzzle of the rifle as perfectly as possible, and if the ball or bullet is “whanged” out of shape in loading, it is impossible to deliver it from the muzzle in perfect condition. " [author's emphasis]
From The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts.
In response to the idea that one needs to obturate the bullet while loading.

Now would there not be a marked improvement in accuracy when using soft lead vs. an alloy ball, since at some point the alloy would not allow as much if any obturation when loaded OR when fired? Yet there are some when target shooting that have no problems with excellent accuraty with alloy bullets. Pehaps, as Mr. Roberts wrote, the lack of any deformation helps those with the alloy bullets, since they are more difficult to obturate, and thus must remain round?

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Some shooters didn't know they were using alloy ball until they encountered truly pure lead ball.
:idunno:
Others, as reported, used what they could find..., some harvested spent lead slugs from pistol ranges and re-cast them while not knowing that pistol bullets are mostly alloy, and others used harder lead recycled from applications that required harder lead..., and some used old wheel weights or even linotype. :shocked2:

Folks found problems not in accuracy but in loading . Those who had been using soft lead, when trying by accident or by design an alloy lead, often found the patch they had been using was too thick for the alloy ball. Then..., when switching to a thinner patch some found it too thin as they got burn through or other problems, so in those cases..., they had to switch to a smaller diameter mold when making ball from lead alloy. (for example a fellow who loves .535 ball might have to switch to a .530 mold if using wheel weight alloy to cast balls for his rifle.)

The other situation is terminal performance. Not a factor on paper, although the point of impact at long range might be higher with an alloy ball because it might be sufficiently lighter that it's moving faster, so doesn't "drop" as much.

THEN there's what the ball does to a large game animal. Some want the soft lead for it may deform on impact..., and others may want the ball to hold it's shape as would the harder, alloy ball. This is because they want the ball to penetrate as far as possible, and think that in their case on that particular type of animal, a round ball deforming is increasing it's loss of speed within the animal, as it flattens and increases the surface area relative to the wound-channel that it is creating.

For me..., if it shoots straight, and hits where I've lined up the sights (shooting straight gives you a nice grouping of shots, shooting straight where I've alined the sights puts that group where I wanted the group of shots :wink: ) and the bullet has sufficient speed to humanely dispatch the deer..., I don't think it matters to the deer if the ball says .530 or deforms to .620 diameter.

Whatever works for your rifle, for one of the quirks of this game is that the rifles often don't shoot similar combinations when all the "facts" say they should..., it's going to be more important I'd wager, for you to get some regular, successful, range time, rather that what type ball, pure or alloy, you're launching. Probably more true for the guys who use them smoothbores.


LD

 

[19 16 6]

^^^^ didya git that ^^^^^^ didya ^^^^^^ huh ^^^^^^
O.

 

[dsayer]

I've used stick on WW (pretty soft) and pure lead for round balls with equally good success. I also cast Lee REALs and have found that pure lead results in boolits that are a little small for my liking, so I've started using a harder alloy so they're a little larger in diameter and fit a bit tighter.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Don't know why you keep on thinking that the ball takes up the rifling.
The patch does that.
O.

Because on a properly sized ball/patch combo you can see the rifling indentation on the ball. And that is what contributes to optimum accuracy.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

Pure lead, the only reason is the experienced guys told me to use it when I first started, I had no problems then and no reason to stop since. :idunno:

Pure lead isn't difficult for me to find, I just ask around. You find out what people want and they bring the lead to you.

 

[bore_butter]

looks like it would be real hard to screw in a bullet puller. but then on the other hand some never need to do that.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I would like to point out that there is not just pure lead, and hard lead. There can and are varying degrees of hardness. I shoot paper patched bullets. Pure lead is 5 BHN hard. For my 50's I use lead that is between 6 and 7 BHN. For my 45 I use lead that is 8 to 9 BHN hard. I have a hardness tester and I tested groups and hardness. I came up with these values in my tests.
It is my opinion that most rifles will shoot better with a little alloy mixed in. It might be very little like my 50 or a lot. I customize the lead my self to match when the rifle needs.

FYI, Clip on wheel weights were about 12 BHN. no lead wheel weights have been made in years. Stick on wheel weights are also a thing of the past.
Dental lead is almost gone now but it was HARD!! as hard as wheel weights.

FYIx2 alloy lead will harden with age. I have seen bullets that were poured with alloy work fine. A year later they won't go down the barrel. Lead can change and does.

 

[Canute Rex]

In my 54 smoothbore I shoot lead that is some crazy percentage of zinc. A friend calls them my "armor piercing" round balls. They are significantly lighter than pure lead, 203 grains vs 212 for pure lead. (0.520") They shoot fine and leave a moon crater in a steel gong.

In a rifle I use pure lead or something close. It depends partly on the barrel. A Coleraine barrel has drainage ditches 0.016" deep, so with a hard ball you are going to run into some thick patch / patch compression issues. With shallower 0.010" flat bottomed rifling you might be able to get away with a harder alloy.

The main thing is consistency, in weight and diameter.

 

[nkbj]

With deep grooves (and especially with wider grooves) you can have a ball seated into the rifling off the bore center.
As always, consistency in loading technique is important.
And away she goes!

 

[stubshaft]

Pure lead, the only reason is the experienced guys told me to use it when I first started, I had no problems then and no reason to stop since. :idunno:

Pure lead isn't difficult for me to find, I just ask around. You find out what people want and they bring the lead to you.

I get pure lead locally for $1.45 a pound, and use a fair amount of it for my Minie shooters. Range lead, Linotype and wheel weights, I have a lot of.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

I don't own nor would ever use a bullet puller.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Don't know why you keep on thinking that the ball takes up the rifling.
The patch does that.
O.

Because I have measured recovered (formerly patched) relatively pure lead (and some harder w/solder scrap) balls with flats from the rifling lands and where they are not flat they "took up" the groove pattern. Rifling being grooves in the barrel.

They were either swaged when loaded or obturated when fired. But flats are flats.

 

[necchi]

Don't know why you keep on thinking that the ball takes up the rifling.
The patch does that.
O.

OMG,, not another one.
Ok, 19 16 6,, it's simple. The fact that the ball is affected by the patch is as olde as dirt,, I mean honestly we all figured that part out when we made powder out of crushed granite and cat piss.

Here is a simple comment from a T/C manual on page 26 of the link found on this forum,, get it?

When a perfectly patched round ball is driven through the barrel, it will show cloth marks around the circumference of the ball. It will be heavily engraved where it bore on the lands and lightly engraved in the groove area.

I mean if you really wanna beat the idea up (again) we can offer you some guidance,, (?)
Or maybe you ↑ ↑ seek ↑ ↑ validation © ¡