Pure lead! (or is it?) a field test ?

[token tory]

Here, in a nutshell is the situation.
I was given a block of "pure lead" weighing 31 1/2 Lbs by a friend. He is not a metals expert, but he does have a great deal of experience in this particular application of lead as it relates to his skills as a nuclear pharmacist.
The lead is used as a containment structure for irradiated samples, called generators, used to manufacture doses of nuclear medicine. (I mention this background only to help with anyone in the same area of expertise's input.)

After use these shields are stored till utterly safe & depleted of even the slightest trace if lingering effects & then disposed of. So I was given a pig to see if it could be used for bullet casting. I don't have the facilities & can't create them so I went to trade the block for shooting merchandise with a BP store today & I need to run the test process they used past the members here as I get an uneasy feeling about how this turned out.

I presented the 31 1/2 Lb block & explained that I had been told essentially the preamble to this post & would like to sell (or trade the lead for merchandise) & this is what happened.

The dealer took a piece of material from a pile of metals on the floor & struck the block I was offering. There was a dent created in the block I had and a dull "ding". Based on this he pronounced my block a "lead alloy of some type" & denied that it was in fact pure fairly soft lead. He then switched to a different block of material & repeated the test where it went "dunk" for lack of a better term. A dull thud. There was no mark left in the block of mine at this point.

The trade price was $5.00 for 31 1/2 Lbs of the material.

Here is the crux of the question.
If any of his striking blocks produced the dull thump characteristic of pure lead didn't this indicate that his striker was not pure, when dinging, but pure when thunkinig?
Isn't it true that lead struck by lead thumps & does not mark one sample over the other?

My thought here is that I frankly got taken. I have no way of actually testing my material but it is soft enough that I can easily leave a furrow in it by running a thumbnail across the surface. I'm also aware that metals prices to buy/trade aren't "market" but isn't 6.3 cents a pound low to buy, even for lead alloyed?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Wish I knew the correct answers, but it seems to me at first glance, that the dealer was going to melt the material and simply splash-off or scoop-out from the top some of whatever else was or is in the lead, thus leaving mostly pure lead to cast with. :idunno: I could be wrong, or missing something, and others will surely follow with better info.

Dave

 

[CaptainKirk]

I'm with Dave on this one. And, at the risk of going out on a limb, I concur...your were taken at $5.00 for 31 lbs.

 

[R.M.]

You can't "Un-Alloy" lead by home processes.
Yes, he did get ripped. Badly. A lot of scrap yards are selling for a buck a pound.

 

[mazo kid]

While in no way a scientific means, you could drop your lead on a concrete floor. It should make the dull thud you described if it is soft. Also, the fingernail test will also tell you the lead in question is probably soft enough for casting ball. If you have some other alloy, say wheelweight in an ingot form, you can definitely tell the difference between it and lead using the "drop on the concrete floor" test. The WW will have a ring to it. And yes, sorry to say, I believe the dealer mistreated you. I hope you can get more lead from your friend and make your own test. You can cast up some RB and see for yourself if it is soft enough; it doesn't have to be pure.

 

[arquebus]

Well, you can't de-alloy lead by melting it & scooping the alloy off the top, as it's all blended in. You can remove the dross (impurities) this way though.
While not scientific, I have found if I can mark the lead with my thumbnail it's 'near enough' to pure lead so as not to bother. I think the dealer you traded it to got a real good deal, but at least you'll know better in future. If you get some more from your friend keep it or sell it to a fellow shooter who will appreciate it.

 

[mazo kid]

.....the dealer was going to melt the material and simply splash-off or scoop-out from the top some of whatever else was or is in the lead, thus leaving mostly pure lead to cast with. :idunno: I could be wrong, or missing something, and others will surely follow with better info.Dave

Dave, once lead has been alloyed it is VERY hard to separate the ingredients out simply by melting. At least that is what I have been told on several occasions. That's why if you get wheelweights up to a high enough temperature to meld any Zinc ones, the batch is basically ruined for casting bullets.

 

[Josh Smith]

Next time, you can send it to me, and I'll send back half of it in the form of .490" balls.

Josh

 

[Stumpkiller]

Here is the crux of the question.
If any of his striking blocks produced the dull thump characteristic of pure lead didn't this indicate that his striker was not pure, when dinging, but pure when thunkinig?
Isn't it true that lead struck by lead thumps & does not mark one sample over the other?

I'm no metalurgist, but I would think if the samples are of the same material they would each be deformed a similar amount when struck together. Otherwise, the softer would show more damage. If one shows no damage, it is a lot harder. But I've never heard of this being done.

I like the "fingernail" test. If you can scratch it with your fingernail - it's soft enough.

 

[token tory]

I'm no metalurgist, but I would think if the samples are of the same material they would each be deformed a similar amount when struck together. Otherwise, the softer would show more damage. If one shows no damage, it is a lot harder.

That was what made me get a little suspicious. The fact that when the dealer got a specific result from one striker, that he tried a different one to confirm what he thought.

Shame, I've been (past tense) dealing with this shop since I got started in BP. Oh well, live & learn I guess. The dealer has lost not just a sale, but a customer as well. :slap:

 

[token tory]

That's a great offer & I appreciate it.
Shipping will be ugly though :rotf:

Can yo do .454? (My shooter is a '58 Rem New Army in .44 & likes the .454 balls.)

 

[SmokeEater2]

I cast some balls out of one of the pigs I got and poured the rest in ingot molds. While in no way scientific I'm convinced this is pure (or darn close to it) lead. I compared it to lead that I had on hand that I knew was pure and couldn't tell any difference.

(If anyone is confused,I got a couple of the same lead pigs that Colonist did)

A further thought. This same lead is usually sold to a metal recycling company at the daily market rate for pure lead. I doubt they would pay that for an alloy. Sounds like your dealer is either ignorant or dishonest.

 

[wy0mn]

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but what about battery lead? Anything good for salvage, for shooting, in that?

 

[token tory]

Thanks, SMOKEEATER2 I was pretty sure myself but it's nice to have it confirmed that I now have 2 primary anterior orifices. :bow:

Like he said we were both gifted with identical pigs & he is more knowledgeable than I in these matters.

That's the last time I shop at or suggest this dealer, he is obviously dishonest.

(No, it wasn't Dixons, I was there today but did not have this discussion with them.) It was ( I don't know how specific the forum's rules are here so I'll try to stay within the lines) the one in PA, named after a fort next to The mass-market sporting goods store named after a male goose & a big hill. :shake:

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Drop a piece of pure lead on a concrete floor and it makes a "thud". Drop a piece of linotype on the floor and it makes a "ting". Keep dropping pieces and after a few years you can almost tell the alloy by the noise it makes when you drop it on concrete. Tom.

 

[necchi]

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but what about battery lead? Anything good for salvage, for shooting, in that?

NO! There's some nasty stuff in batteries nowadays,,they ain't like they were 40 years ago.

Just some friendly advice,,stay away from them battery's, :nono: ,Ya darn sure don't wanna melt any in a pot at home, :nono: ,let the big commercial outfits deal with'm,,

 

[zrifleman]

While his "drop" method is by no means scientific, it has proven for me to be reliable method of testing scrap lead for 25 yrs. Any alloy will clink or have a dull ring. Pure lead is "dead soft". Incidentally, I have some of the lead containers you talked about. For the most part they are an alloy with only a few being close to pure lead.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but what about battery lead? Anything good for salvage, for shooting, in that?

What Necchi said. "No".

Battery plates will be heavily oxidized and have sulphates and such and have acid or acid salts. You don't want to be breathing in the fumes off that melt. Battery terminals, on the other hand, are top shelf lead. If you can get just the terminals (and scrap yards sort them out) it is a good find.

 

[Dphar]

Here, in a nutshell is the situation.
I was given a block of "pure lead" weighing 31 1/2 Lbs by a friend. He is not a metals expert, but he does have a great deal of experience in this particular application of lead as it relates to his skills as a nuclear pharmacist.
The lead is used as a containment structure for irradiated samples, called generators, used to manufacture doses of nuclear medicine. (I mention this background only to help with anyone in the same area of expertise's input.)

After use these shields are stored till utterly safe & depleted of even the slightest trace if lingering effects & then disposed of. So I was given a pig to see if it could be used for bullet casting. I don't have the facilities & can't create them so I went to trade the block for shooting merchandise with a BP store today & I need to run the test process they used past the members here as I get an uneasy feeling about how this turned out.

I presented the 31 1/2 Lb block & explained that I had been told essentially the preamble to this post & would like to sell (or trade the lead for merchandise) & this is what happened.

The dealer took a piece of material from a pile of metals on the floor & struck the block I was offering. There was a dent created in the block I had and a dull "ding". Based on this he pronounced my block a "lead alloy of some type" & denied that it was in fact pure fairly soft lead. He then switched to a different block of material & repeated the test where it went "dunk" for lack of a better term. A dull thud. There was no mark left in the block of mine at this point.

The trade price was $5.00 for 31 1/2 Lbs of the material.

Here is the crux of the question.
If any of his striking blocks produced the dull thump characteristic of pure lead didn't this indicate that his striker was not pure, when dinging, but pure when thunkinig?
Isn't it true that lead struck by lead thumps & does not mark one sample over the other?

My thought here is that I frankly got taken. I have no way of actually testing my material but it is soft enough that I can easily leave a furrow in it by running a thumbnail across the surface. I'm also aware that metals prices to buy/trade aren't "market" but isn't 6.3 cents a pound low to buy, even for lead alloyed?

The ones I melted down were plently soft enough for MLs. I don't think they alloy the containers but this is supposition.
If you subscribe to the idea that MLs only shoot well with pure lead then you need pure lead. I say if it loads easy its soft enough.
WW alloy loads easily in rifles with narrow lands and shoots very well given all the the stuff added to them its a long way from pure lead.

Dan

 

[CaptainKirk]

Aircraft batteries have caps on top with lead weights to close off the vents when the aircraft encounters angles that would allow spillage. Its a simple task to collect these caps, crush them open and extract the lead weights. Soaking them in water with a light baking soda mix will neutralize the acid. They are pure lead and melt easily. If you live anywhere near a general aviation shop, stop in and talk to the maintenance folks. Likely they will just give them to you.
(Just don't stop by MY shop..I keep all mine!) :wink: