Pure lead! (or is it?) a field test ?

[Tumblernotch]

Thanks, SMOKEEATER2 I was pretty sure myself but it's nice to have it confirmed that I now have 2 primary anterior orifices. :bow:

Like he said we were both gifted with identical pigs & he is more knowledgeable than I in these matters.

That's the last time I shop at or suggest this dealer, he is obviously dishonest.

(No, it wasn't Dixons, I was there today but did not have this discussion with them.) It was ( I don't know how specific the forum's rules are here so I'll try to stay within the lines) the one in PA, named after a fort next to The mass-market sporting goods store named after a male goose & a big hill. :shake:

I've known the owner of that shop for over 25 years and have never known him to be dishonest. He's always been a straight shooter with me. I'll probably be seeing him next month. Maybe I can find out what that was all about. By the way, 31.5 lbs @ $5.00 amounts to 16 cents per pound, not 6.3. I'm seeing clean lead listed at prices from .50 to $1.00 per pound in auctions. RotoMetal lists theirs at $2.29. The shop you are talking about is a small shop and he doesn't move a lot of his lead stock. Maybe you should have refused the offer.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

One of the nasty things is cadmium. Other trace elements, if you survive the actual melting and casting process, produce nerve gasses.

They make lead poisoning look safe.

I've been shooting 60:1 and 40:1 mixes as I ran out of pure lead (should be getting some shipped to me shortly in exchange for .45acp bullets treated with the proprietary, dry "J.S. Lube" )

Though these are for plinking, the seat easily enough and hold 2" at 50 yards with my poor eyesight.

I wouldn't trust them to expand much on deer, though. The balls measure .493" and weigh in at 170 to 173gns, vs the 178gns I was getting with the pure stuff.

Josh

 

[Billnpatti]

If you haven't already taken the deal, DON'T. That person is trying to really screw you. If the lead is soft enough for you to leave a deep scratch with your fingernail, it is soft enough to make lead balls with. Even so, that pig of lead is worth around $1 per pound, maybe less since he wants to buy it at wholesale price, but even so, it should bring at least $20 for the pig.

I have used almost exclusively the lead that you are talking about. When I was still working, we had a radioisotope lab that received samples in lead containers. At that time, the price of lead was a lot less than now and it was not cost effective to ship the containers back to the radioisotope company. So, they just stored the containers until one of the employees asked for some to make bullets or fishing sinkers. I got about 300 pounds of the stuff and melted them into 1 pound ingots. You can easily do the same with your lead. Get a heavy pot, NOT ALUMINUM!!!!!, a lead ingot mold and a MAP gas torch (propane will work but takes longer). Place the ingot into the pot and use the torch to cut it into pieces. Let the lead in the pot cool and then remove most of it. Place about 10 pounds of the metal in the heavy pot and melt it over a stove burner. Pour the melted lead into the ingot mold and you will have very handy 1 pound ingots that are easily melted to make bullets or balls.

If you don't want to do the melting, take the ingot back to the dealer and tell him that while it may not be absolutely pure lead, it is plenty soft enough to make balls and it is worth at least $20 cash or $25 in trade. You may have to dicker a bit but what he is offering you is highway robbery. Do not fall for it.

 

[token tory]

Maybe I can find out what that was all about. By the way, 31.5 lbs @ $5.00 amounts to 16 cents per pound, not 6.3. I'm seeing clean lead listed at prices from .50 to $1.00 per pound in auctions. RotoMetal lists theirs at $2.29. The shop you are talking about is a small shop and he doesn't move a lot of his lead stock. Maybe you should have refused the offer.

Maybe I should have, & maybe I did fluff the math, but even if I did, answer me this question.

Does that make him honest at that price (16 c a pound instead of 50c to $1.00 a pound)or does it not?

Either way I'm not intending to turn this thread into a shouting match, just was curious about what happened. I actually feel bad at losing the source of my BP supplies & the people who have been my local supplier since I started in BP shooting. I'd like there to be a good reason why this happened, but from all the replies posted here it seems to confirm my worst suspicions.

As you know the place, let me say that there were 2 persons involved in the discussion & deal. Neither were the guy who I usually deal with. One seemed to be the owner??? (gold rimmed classes & a serious reenactor)& the other seemed to be a worker there, but neither were the salesman I usually deal with so they may have thought I was a rube fresh off the street instead of a regular customer?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Hey Chaz,

Speaking strictly as an "outsider", I'd say that the two guys who handled the transaction low-balled you either due to them not knowing/caring/wanting anything to do with the lead, or because they had enough to sell (and don't sell that much). They didn't NEED it, so they offered a really low price for it, since from what others have written, it seems that it will have to sit there for a while to get sold. As a business owner, that makes sense to me.

I have a shotgun that I really don't need. I took it to a local guy that I deal with for over 30 years. He offers me 30% of what I paid for the thing, hoping that I'd just keep it myself. I KNOW I can get more, if I do the work in selling it, so I walk away from the deal. I still go there and buy stuff, and the guy who owns the place has donated loads of ammo to the Club for events like Ladies Day at the Range. So no hard feelings. I guess what I'm trying to say is to forget about the lead, and just continue with your relationship. Or you can always mail-order everything for your '58 Remmy but powder & caps from Gregg Dixon :wink: .

Dave

 

[Tumblernotch]

Maybe I can find out what that was all about. By the way, 31.5 lbs @ $5.00 amounts to 16 cents per pound, not 6.3. I'm seeing clean lead listed at prices from .50 to $1.00 per pound in auctions. RotoMetal lists theirs at $2.29. The shop you are talking about is a small shop and he doesn't move a lot of his lead stock. Maybe you should have refused the offer.

Maybe I should have, & maybe I did fluff the math, but even if I did, answer me this question.

Does that make him honest at that price (16 c a pound instead of 50c to $1.00 a pound)or does it not?

Either way I'm not intending to turn this thread into a shouting match, just was curious about what happened. I actually feel bad at losing the source of my BP supplies & the people who have been my local supplier since I started in BP shooting. I'd like there to be a good reason why this happened, but from all the replies posted here it seems to confirm my worst suspicions.

As you know the place, let me say that there were 2 persons involved in the discussion & deal. Neither were the guy who I usually deal with. One seemed to be the owner??? (gold rimmed classes & a serious reenactor)& the other seemed to be a worker there, but neither were the salesman I usually deal with so they may have thought I was a rube fresh off the street instead of a regular customer?

The fellow who owns the shop has light red hair (graying) and has a slight stutter at times. He used to reenact years ago, but I don't think he's active anymore. I only get up that way a couple of times a year anymore so I haven't gotten to know some of the employees that come and go. There is one that I deal with besides the owner and I don't recall him being a reenactor. One may have been a customer. There's usually only one working besides the owner and he spends a lot of time upstairs working on a gun. There have been times when a customer comes in while I'm there and will ask about something and sometimes I'm drawn into the discussion and the customer may think I, or another man, may be employees. I wasn't there when you made your deal so I can't tell you what went down or who was involved. I can tell you that while the owner is there to make money and stay in business, it has been my experience that he will do his best to treat you right. Not knowing who all works for him, I can't vouch for them except maybe the one I deal with.

The past several times I've been in the shop, I've seen the piles of lead he has and they've not changed much at all. He's not turning over much at all from all appearances, so I don't think he's making much money on it at any price. I know that small shops (not just gun shops) that trade and buy stuff wholesale are not going to pay any more than they have to. This Summer I paid $25 for 160 lbs of sheet lead and that comes out at about .16 a lb. That was the seller's price. The prices I quoted are retail prices at auction. You can figure that a dealer is planning on at least doubling his money and more if possible. I can't blame him for that. If you're going to sell something you have to settle on what the least amount you'll accept will be and go from there. He's already figured on what the least amount he will pay will be. Did he have a wholesale price posted anywhere? I've never seen one. With lead prices as well as all scrap prices going up and down daily, buyers will not pay a premium unless they know they can sell fast and make a profit.

I'd like to think that the owner would do right by you as he has by me over the years. I would like to know more about the method he used to "test" the lead. I'm a bit puzzled about the "blocks of material" used. This does sound kinda fishy to me. (See below). I hope that the owner didn't knowingly do something dishonest, 'cause from what I know of him, it's not his nature.


"""The dealer took a piece of material from a pile of metals on the floor & struck the block I was offering. There was a dent created in the block I had and a dull "ding". Based on this he pronounced my block a "lead alloy of some type" & denied that it was in fact pure fairly soft lead. He then switched to a different block of material & repeated the test where it went "dunk" for lack of a better term. A dull thud. There was no mark left in the block of mine at this point."""

I'm a bit dull sometimes so you might explain this a little more.

If there was any chicanery going on here I'll find out. At the same time, I'd hate for him to get a bad name for a misunderstanding or an employee who doesn't know his business or is dishonest.

 

[token tory]

Here is a bit more detail, hopefully it'll clear things up a bit.

From your description the owner was the second person involved & a worker, not a customer was the one doing the actual testing. He also looked something up on the shop's computer so I got the definite impression he was a worker, not a helpful customer.

The first "hammer" he used was an ingot of some material his helper picked up from the boxes of lead that are on the floor just as you walk into the entrance. It produced a "ding" sound & dimpled my material when he struck them together. This seems to indicate that 1. his sample was harder than my material & 2. his material may have been less than pure lead I say this because of the dimpling in my material & the "ding" sound of an alloy.

The second "hammer" was a different piece of ingot he produced from below the counter I can't tell where exactly, but it was NOT from the boxes on the floor. It produced a dull "thud" when striking my material & left no impression at all.

My thinking is that the first hammer was not pure lead because it was harder & went "ding", the second was pure lead because it produced no mark & went "thunk".

Following on from this is the thought that if my material was pure lead but one of his test pieces wasn't then the effects produced would be as happened. If my material was truly an alloy shouldn't it have "dinged" whenever struck by whatever because if it's impurities?

I'd really like to continue dealing with these guys, but fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.................. :idunno:

 

[bchannell]

I think they snookered you big time. Sadly, it happens all the time.
The only way I've come up with to determine lead purity is to mold a ball out of known pure lead, then mold a ball out of the unknown material. Put the balls together in a bench vise and turn the screw to smash one ball against the other. If the balls deform to roughly the same amount, ie thickness, then the two alloys are the same, ie pure lead. It's a quick and dirty test that surprisingly yields decent results.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

The dealer is in business to make money?? Isn't he?? And it was in one large piece so he had to do a little work to break it down. So if it took him a half hour to break it down and pour in ingots-how much did he really make?? Do you guys expect him to offer retail prices for the lead?? He might have offered another $5 or so to make a little better deal for the seller, but the seller could have always said NO, or asked for a little more. And when was the last time any of you guys would turn that lead down for $5?? Probably not very many. Tom.

 

[goon]

Eh... maybe he got taken.
But I post WTB ads for lead locally occasionally. Sometimes I get people wanting a buck a pound for raw wheelweights. I've got enough of those and haven't done anything with them yet, and that price isn't all that good, so I turn them down.
I'm not looking to make money, but I am looking to get stuff I can use as cheaply as possible. I got over a hundred pounds of soft lead once for $20 just because someone wanted rid of it.
The guy I bought it from was happy. Met him in a restaurant parking lot and he said I'd bought dinner for him and his wife.

Guess you just kind of have to know what you're willing to pay or take for something before you buy it.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I went out to my shop and did a little experiment with some lead I have. I don't have any big chunks, but some 1 lb. ingots, both of hard and soft lead. I struck a soft lead ingot with a hard lead one. There was a light "dink" sound and a dent was left in the soft lead and a light smear mark in the hard. I then reversed the process and struck the hard with the soft. Same results. I then struck two soft bars together. More of a "thunk" sound but with a hint of a metallic ring. Both bars were equally dented this time. Then, I struck two hard bars against each other. This produced a pronounced ring and both bars were dented. I dug around and found a large piece of sheet lead that had been folded and a piece of lead pipe. I smacked these together. Got a dull "thunk" and marked both pieces. I then hit them with one of my "soft" ingots. Got lighter "thunk", marking both pieces. I'm left with the impression that my soft ingots may have just a trace of alloy in them, but still quite soft. I know that the flashing and pipe are "dead soft". By the way, you can scratch alloyed lead with a thumbnail, just not as deep. You can put quite a deep scratch in pure lead. If the first hammer dinged and left an impression, it is probably alloyed and made of a similar composition as your piece. The second hammer apparently was pure dead soft lead if it thunked and left no mark. It sounds like your lead may have been alloyed. It would be helpful to see what impressions were made in the hammers. As for ringing, in this case the lighter piece would be most likely to ring, in this case the hammers. I don't know what differences in price the various dealers pay between pure and alloyed lead, but I'm guessing that you were paid for the latter. This lead is best for cartridge weapons but can still be used for roundballs. For minies or slugs that need to expand into rifling, soft is needed. Pure can be alloyed, but it's hard to remove alloys from lead, so soft lead will demand the premium price.

I hope you can work out your differences with him. If I get to see him, I'll try to see what the situation is. I'm sure he wasn't trying to rook you, but I wasn't there and people are only human. If he did wrong, shame on him. If he didn't, I'd hate to see him get a bad reputation because of a misunderstanding. And I'm not saying that you were wrong either. Sometimes things just happen when people are involved.

:thumbsup:

 

[zampilot]

He used alloy the first time and lead the second, striking your lead.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The dealer is in business to make money?? Isn't he?? And it was in one large piece so he had to do a little work to break it down. So if it took him a half hour to break it down and pour in ingots-how much did he really make?? Do you guys expect him to offer retail prices for the lead?? He might have offered another $5 or so to make a little better deal for the seller, but the seller could have always said NO, or asked for a little more. And when was the last time any of you guys would turn that lead down for $5?? Probably not very many. Tom.

That's something I should've brought up but didn't. This dealer generally leaves much of his lead in chunks for sale. But it takes up a lot of floor space and he has to pay taxes on it at the very least. I don't remember what he asks for it, but from what I've seen, he doesn't send a lot of it out the door with customers. But, it's there for whoever needs it.

I've never turned down cheap or free lead. That last batch I bought at .16 a lb, if he would have sold it cheaper, I'd still have bought it. I scraped up 32 lbs of shot from a PA trap field a few years ago on my hands and knees. It took a lot of cleaning, but I finally got it cast into ingots and got some good hard lead out of it. If I ever sell it the buyer is going to have to pay a pretty good price for it. It's hot, dirty dangerous work refining and casting large amounts of lead. Out of hundreds of pounds of lead I've cast over the years, I've sold about 20 lbs at a buck a pound. With fuel costs and my labor, if I ever sell any more it will be much higher. I did sell a batch of .69 Minies that I cast about 15 years ago for .50 a round (wholesale). If I ever do that again it will be higher. It all depends on supply and demand and what it's worth to the buyer. I may be wrong, but I believe the above situation was probably a misunderstanding. At least I hope that's all it was.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Absolutely Ranger. Heck take your lead to a scrapper and see what he offers you!! If he is willing to buy it at all.

I am not trying to defend the dealer(but I guess I am). But he was not doing anything any one of us would not do. And that is to buy something for the best price he can. I can't blame him for that. And the seller can always say no. Tom.

 

[goon]

That's something I should've brought up but didn't. This dealer generally leaves much of his lead in chunks for sale. But it takes up a lot of floor space and he has to pay taxes on it at the very least. I don't remember what he asks for it, but from what I've seen, he doesn't send a lot of it out the door with customers. But, it's there for whoever needs it.

I've never turned down cheap or free lead. That last batch I bought at .16 a lb, if he would have sold it cheaper, I'd still have bought it. I scraped up 32 lbs of shot from a PA trap field a few years ago on my hands and knees. It took a lot of cleaning, but I finally got it cast into ingots and got some good hard lead out of it. If I ever sell it the buyer is going to have to pay a pretty good price for it. It's hot, dirty dangerous work refining and casting large amounts of lead. Out of hundreds of pounds of lead I've cast over the years, I've sold about 20 lbs at a buck a pound. With fuel costs and my labor, if I ever sell any more it will be much higher. I did sell a batch of .69 Minies that I cast about 15 years ago for .50 a round (wholesale). If I ever do that again it will be higher. It all depends on supply and demand and what it's worth to the buyer. I may be wrong, but I believe the above situation was probably a misunderstanding. At least I hope that's all it was.

This is a good point. I smelted down a bunch of lead a few months ago and it is hard work. I had to unroll the sheets and cut them to small enough chunks with an axe and a hatchet, build a good hot fire in the yard - the fuel was seasoned hardwood that I cut a couple years ago. It is dangerous, not just because of the fire but because molten lead is HOT! You have to pay attention to it all the time. There are poisonous fumes to worry about breathing.
Other costs - the wood I used was cut with my chainsaw, which cost me about $350 when I bought it. The equipment I used to smelt my lead into ingots was gathered up at yard sales and antique stores over the course of three years - it takes time to stumble on to things that work sometimes.

Point being, there are lots of costs associated with making scrap lead into something you can use. You'd have a hard time buying any of those muffin ingots from me at this point. I may give a couple to one guy I know who's answered a lot of reenactment questions for me, but the rest is mine.

 

[gordy]

Not that there arn"t people who would hood-wink us for 20 or 30 dollars , but as was mentioned by others here , there"s a lot of work involved in getting that block of lead to as point he could sell it to the "average" home bullet caster . If it were lead pipe , roof flashing or cable sheathing , that could be worked up without so much effort , it might be worth more cash . If someone were to "give" me a block as you discribe , I know doubt would take it . dut knowling the work needed to render it to a usable state I wouldn"t pay more than $5.00 myself . It sounds to be a misunderstanding rather than a rip-off . :hmm:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I talked to the shop owner today on the telephone and told him about what we were discussing. He told me how they did the test on the lead and that by the results of that test, it was ascertained that it contained a good bit of alloy. After you left the shop, he used a lead hardness tester and it confirmed that the block was definitely hard lead. Whoever told you that it was soft apparently does not know their lead.

That being said, he told me how he sets the prices he will pay for lead. First, he sells soft lead in 1 pound ingots for $1.00 per pound. That has been the standard price for years in every shop I've ever been in. And compared to some of the online prices I've seen lately it is very reasonable. This is the kind of lead he would rather have. If you sell him good, clean soft lead in ingots he will pay you fifty cents a pound for it. If he buys soft lead in chunk form, he will pay you about twenty-five to thirty cents a pound. He does not re-cast the lead himself. He pays another guy twenty-five to thirty cents a pound to cast it into 1 pound ingots. As for hard lead, since it is less desirable, he will pay thirty cents a pound for a clean ingot ready to sell. The rate for a chunk of hard lead is fifteen cents a pound. So you actually got a penny a pound more than the usual rate.

He was somewhat upset that word was going around that he was ripping off customers and told me to let you know that you are more than welcome to come back and he will let you have your lead back. He has set it aside and will not have it melted and re-cast. He appreciates your business and doesn't want to lose your or anyone else's business. As you can see from the above, the tiny profit margin he gets from lead sales is not worth the loss of his good name and the business he has built over the years. I believe that if you get together with him and talk about the situation, he can explain it better than I can. And, you won't have to search around to find another supplier. And I don't think you'll find one any better in your area. I hope things work out for you.

 

[token tory]

Thanks for your efforts on behalf of both of us it is appreciated. :hatsoff:

Next time I'm up that way (probably within a week or two) I'll look in on him.

I am still having a question on the hardness issue as another identical block was determined to be soft enough to make good soft lead RBs right here on this forum!

I cast some balls out of one of the pigs I got and poured the rest in ingot molds. While in no way scientific I'm convinced this is pure (or darn close to it) lead. I compared it to lead that I had on hand that I knew was pure and couldn't tell any difference.

(If anyone is confused,I got a couple of the same lead pigs that Colonist did)

Either way I'll return his cash for my lead & call it even & let the matter drop.

Thanks once again for all your help.

 

[Tumblernotch]

He'll be glad to see you. He certainly wouldn't want to lose your patronage and I'm sure you wouldn't want to lose a good supplier. He can also explain the price rates and lead hardness better than I could.

I can't explain why two apparently identical lead blocks were not the same, but there is the possibility that two people can interpret the results of a fingernail or hammer test differently. I can scratch fairly hard lead with my thumbnail, just not as deep as in soft. What one person hears when striking a lead bar can vary with another's sound. And fairly hard lead can be used satisfactorily for round balls though it may be harder to get consistent weights and they do weigh less. Of course, hard lead is not good for Minies. Using a hardness tester would probably be the best way to verify things.

I do hope everything works out alright between the two of you and you can continue to do business. Have a good'un!
:thumbsup:

 

[gordy]

I would like to find someone near me that would sell me pure lead in 1lb. ingots for $1.00 , I"m probably as frugal (cheap) as most anyone on the site , and will go the extra mile to save a buck . I"ve rendered many pounds of lead from cable sheathing , pipe , roof flashing and even lead taken from the bell joints of old cast iron sewer systems . I will continue to seek out the above mentioned sources of lead , but when and if I could buy soft or pure lead already rendered for $1.00lb. I"D rob my piggy bank and be in front of the line to purchase that lead . The last time I priced plumbers lead (new) , it was nearly $3.00lb. I enjoy casting my own ball , and enjoy saving money rendering my own (raw) material , but rendering down a 32 lb. block of lead that was used as a shield for radiation of some type is not my idea of enjoyment . Accoring to the experts lead will NOT absorb any radiation , but if there is an alloy in that lead it could very well be contaminated . Once again , I would have to say the BPShop wasn" out to scam anyone , hope you and the shop owner come to a mutual agreement . :thumbsup: