Pyrites Problems

[DuncNZ]

Hi I have a nice .54 carbine which I am trying to get to shoot . I have a real pyrites problem , I cant get more than 3 shots out of a piece of pyrites , whether the sugar lump like fools gold made of small crystals or large cubes about .5" or a bit smaller . I glue these on to a piece of old ramrod so the jaws of the dog wont crush it . I get unreliable results about 3 shots in 5 goes then I have to change the pyrites . What do you wheel lock shooters do for pyrites ?

 

[rickystl]

Not surprised you get only about 3 shots per piece of pyrite. Anywhere from 1-6 is common. While it sparks well, the trouble with pyrite is that it is brittle, and tends to crumble. Usually sooner than later. In original times, they must have had large groups of people cutting pieces of pyrite all day. LOL What worked for me was a piece of ferro rod. It's harder than pyrite, but still way softer than the wheel. This is the only Company I know of that makes the rods SQUARE. Just hacksaw/cut off a 1" length and insert into the jaws with a piece of leather, like a flintlock. Rick

Square FireSteels

 

[MCFred]

the builder of my wheellock pistol recommended agate.

 

[DuncNZ]

the builder of my wheellock pistol recommended agate.

Hi , Did you try the agate ?

 

[DuncNZ]

Not surprised you get only about 3 shots per piece of pyrite. Anywhere from 1-6 is common. While it sparks well, the trouble with pyrite is that it is brittle, and tends to crumble. Usually sooner than later. In original times, they must have had large groups of people cutting pieces of pyrite all day. LOL What worked for me was a piece of ferro rod. It's harder than pyrite, but still way softer than the wheel. This is the only Company I know of that makes the rods SQUARE. Just hacksaw/cut off a 1" length and insert into the jaws with a piece of leather, like a flintlock. Rick

Square FireSteels

Hi Rick , I cut up a large rod from a Gerber firestarter , all I got was very small white sparks , which just would not light ffff prime . I have seen a TV survival program by Ray Mears , who is a British survival expert . He was on a part of the Devon ( England) coast known as the Jurassic coast because of all the fossils found there , He found some red rock he called Pyrites and struck it with a flint and it produced lots of sparks . The geologist with him said this rock was found in branch shapes , which lead to the supposition that it was dinosaur blood which had run into cracks in the rock and become petrified , maybe this is what was originally used . I am going to order one of these square rods and will report back next year when It arrives , Cheers Dunc

 

[Rudyard]

What an interesting rifle you have . Very Luois the 13th. Your findings echo my own. OK if hunting ,but a regal pain in a 13 shot match or clays . But we watch Brer Bolec just fire away gleefully free of issues .SO he & capandball must Presumabley got onto some better Pyrites .Ergo there must Be some such source I, we all are desirus of obtaining this same stuff . I sure am . Let us hope these posts reveal our much wanted Pyrites .
Regards Rudyard

 

[DuncNZ]

So far the Fire steel company which Rick recommended doesn't send to NZ so I have messaged them to see what can be done and await their reply . As for Louis 13 , He had a lot to do with the Americas and married his second cousin . I could never do that , all mine are as flakey and as ugly as a mud fence .

 

[Rudyard]

Married his seconce couson .! Well he Was a Gun nut our kind of people. I don't think he made the Boys gun yours is based on . But he was quite up on his guns & not afraid to get his hands grubbed up . Unlike his ponsey Son L' Roy Solay If I have the wrong Louis , There all Louis hard to keep track Then' Perdonimay touts l' hom Francais .
Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

So far the Fire steel company which Rick recommended doesn't send to NZ so I have messaged them to see what can be done and await their reply . As for Louis 13 , He had a lot to do with the Americas and married his second cousin . I could never do that , all mine are as flakey and as ugly as a mud fence .

If they won't ship to NZ, let me know and I'll mail you one of mine. I have a couple of spares. Worth trying out. I admit I have only minor experience with these. But it worked on 3F for priming 4 out of 4 times. Wear a mask and safety glasses when cutting. Sparks galore !! LOL If you have a bench grinder, purchase a cutting wheel used for tile. Will put out a great deal of sparks when cutting, but only last about 3 seconds. Use a flat cookie tray with a little water in it to catch the sparks so they don't bounce.
A long while back on the Forum a member said he had very good sucess using arc welding rod. But I've never tried it. Said he had to make a brass holder for the rod to stabilize in the dog jaws.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

 

[JCKelly]

I believe there are different grades/kinds of iron pyrites, with different tenden cies to crumble. I know no more, save speak with a geologist.
Here is one Italian approach, from C.H. Weiz circa 1960's:

 

[Brian Anderson]

agate is too hard - IT WILL EAT THE WHEEL. the spark should come from the pyrite
l use half inch cubes split with a cold chisel or diamond saw. Pyrite is fragile , but with occasional adjustment will last me through a 25 shot woodswalk and then some.
your lock looks like a modified TRS - l have used them though the notching on your wheel looks a little extreme.
The magic fire starter will work better if you cut the end at 45 degrees.
Nice job on the carbine.
Brian

 

[Rudyard]

The lock did have a dog head from TRS the rest was all per French types best as figured out .. The stick pyrites might be just the ticket . I have the same problem but Iv'e used the crumbley gold bits stuck in sections of ram rod off cuts V out & glued I once walked ten days through our local Mountains with my W lock. shot 7 ferrol goats so in hunting its less of a nuisance , But at a rifle match of 13 shots its definatly a nuisance shot once at Bisley,s Short Siberia Range (MLAGB Short Range ) I stuggled off the13 shots but the last one was via a cigarette . Came third (Low entry ) 45 Douglas swamped brl had a lot of bush miles on it & looks like it.
Regards Rudyard.


PS the photo is after the 10 day walk. The camp is typical & the grey river is the Darling up by Pooncarrie N S W. The last being a he goat bowled with a 50 cal English lock with dog catch. local ranges . The headless' is simply my poor set up of the home made timer added to camera . Rudyard

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

It is GREAT to see Brian A. posting here!

If you recall, Brian built the 'Alden' wheellock carbine for me, as originally made by Beretta in ~1560 that came over on the Mayflower and was found hidden behind a wall in the John Alden house/museum years ago when it was remodeled.

Post link = An Alden-inspired ‘Mayflower’ wheellock carbine

At my BP Club's annual pre-Thanksgiving outdoor dinner on the Sunday before the recognized Turkey Day, I brought the 58-cal carbine wheellock Brian had made and got a good few dozen shots out of 1 piece of pyrite that I got from Brian, that appeared cut by a diamond saw.

I don't find such cut pyrite fragile, but I also clamp it 'tight' to the jaw, so less sticks out, 1/8" or less, where the more that projects beyond the dog clamps WOULD become more fragile, just due to leverage and lack of support.

Yes, this means that I need to reposition it more often, but correspondingly it makes the pyrite much more rigid. And to improve reliability, I also clean the pyrite w/ alcohol every 3-shots or so.

 

[Canute Rex]

Listen to Brian A. He knows whereof he speaks.

I have an Italian carbine that Brian made around a Bolek wheellock. The wheel has half a dozen *extremely shallow* notches in it, but is mostly just grooved concentrically. I also can get 20-25 shots from a cut piece of pyrite.

The main things I notice when comparing my lock to the Loyalist/Indian wheellocks:
1) The Bolek lock has bear trap springs. Both the dog spring and the mainspring. They go hand in hand. You need the pyrite really pressing down, but then you need the mainspring to turn the wheel under that friction. The Indian locks are kind of weak.
2) The dog/pan geometry is right on. Even the Bolek lock needed a slight tweak of the dog arm to allow me to use thicker pyrite. But still, the jaws were centered on the top of the wheel and aimed straight down. The Indian locks all need adjustment to get the pyrite aimed right at the wheel, on center.
3) The Indian locks tend to have Grand Canyon sized notches in them, perhaps to make up for the weak springs.

I consider the Indian locks to be assembled kits. You will need to rework them to get non-frustrating performance out of them.

I buy pyrites from China on eBay. They are cubic and rough, but fairly solid. I cut them with a 4" diamond blade on my angle grinder. Wear a dust mask. The pyrites from China are always about 10-15% smaller than listed. "12mm" are really 10mm.

I have also tried ferrocerium rods with no success. Big spark, no ignition.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I recently got several nice wheels lock size iron pyrites from a seller on Esty.com. Five nodules cost like $15 I think.They look like they will work well in my wheel lock. I haven’t tried them yet since the one in the lock is still working well. I think I have gotten at least a dozen shots with it recently ( It just came out of a 30 year retirement) . I bet I get another dozen more.
P.s. cut finger that’s a beautiful gun!!

 

[DuncNZ]

I also buy the cubic pyrites from China through Ali Express , free shipping and about $5 US for 6 or so . . It is a beautiful rifle It was made by a member of this forum , you can possibly guess who !!

 

[Ezeikel]

Gday Cutfinger, Rudyard has told me about you and our mutual interest. The pyrites problem has held me up as well as the stuff from the local jewellery making store appears to work none too well. Needs must... Oh and Happy Christmas

 

[PathfinderNC]

I also buy the cubic pyrites from China through Ali Express , free shipping and about $5 US for 6 or so . . It is a beautiful rifle It was made by a member of this forum , you can possibly guess who !!

My guess is that none other than you have built that stunner. Can you post photos or a link to photos of it?

 

[DuncNZ]

My guess is that none other than you have built that stunner. Can you post photos or a link to photos of it?

Me ? no Rudyard fecit .He a most excellent and talented maker of obscure historical firearms .
I have been sitting here tonight watching a rerun of 30 Rock and fiddling with the wheel lock and a piece of fire striker rod cut to a sharp edge , lots of good sparks , next step is to try it with a primed pan , maybe tomorrow . I contacted the Fire steel company which Rick wrote about and they do send to NZ .I will get some when the Christmas feeding frenzy dies down and I'll also get a coping saw with rock cutting blades . I will post some photos tomorrow.