Question for the King's musketeers among us, Brown Bess accu

[Tower75]

Hi guys

Thought this was a pretty cool video.

The thing that amazed me was that they're using service loads; a .67 to .69 round ball and about 4 drams of powder, which is about 160 grains!! I mean, I know that was the service load for the British Army, but to use that in a modern repro... the most I've done is 100 grains in my Pedersoli with a paper cartridge. Anyone else tried this with the "service load"

Apologies if it's been seen, it's been out for a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgZmM9fNS0&list=FLnA4CI7--qFrP2cKZlwpYIQ&index=1

 

[KentG]

There was a major improvement in powder quality made by a improved technique for refining the potassium nitrate to a purer state. There's a Smithsonian paper on blackpowder cartridges that explains this change that occured in the 1820s, and US service loads were greatly reduced during this era as a result.

Poor powder - needed more. Good powder, need less.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

There was a major improvement in powder quality made by a improved technique for refining the potassium nitrate to a purer state. There's a Smithsonian paper on blackpowder cartridges that explains this change that occured in the 1820s, and US service loads were greatly reduced during this era as a result.

Poor powder - needed more. Good powder, need less.

Quite interesting. The only specific improvement at around that date that I can recall reading about was in press densification. Can you provide a reference to that publication and/or a link if it is available on-line?

Thanks,
Joel

 

[Moose_Owner]

Hi guys

. . . about 4 drams of powder, which is about 160 grains!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgZmM9fNS0&list=FLnA4CI7--qFrP2cKZlwpYIQ&index=1

The video does say that they were using 160 grains of powder. However, that is not 4 drams. Four drams is about 110 grains of powder. There are about 27 grains of powder in a dram.

Either way, that is a pretty stout load.

 

[KABAR2]

Yes and about 20 to 35 grains would have been dumped slopply from the cartridge into the pan leaving about 125 to 140 grains for the load....

 

[Rifleman1776]

I don't recall the max load I have ever used in my BB. Might have been in the 90-100 range but then only for the 'h' of it.
I didn't realize they used such small balls. I use .731s patched in mine. I know service use did not call the balls to be patched.
With such loose balls the charge would seem to be almost immaterial as the gasses would just blow by the small ball.

 

[Tower75]

Yeah, seem stoopid doesn't it. The Bess bore is around 11-12, about .75 cal, but the service ball was between .67-.69, depending on who you read.

I guess the paper wadding helped a bit to trap the gas. But saying that, if you go to their Youtube account they have a video where they spit-load. Naked ball and nothing else, and the ball still manages to penetrate a wooden board at 100 yards! I was genuinely surprised at that.

 

[TFoley]

...about 4 drams of powder, which is about 160 grains!!

1 dram = 27.34gr.

4 drams = 108.8gr.

tac

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I didn't realize they used such small balls. I use .731s patched in mine. I know service use did not call the balls to be patched.
With such loose balls the charge would seem to be almost immaterial as the gasses would just blow by the small ball.

It's not as bad as it looks at first glance. The cartridge paper around the ball takes up some of the difference, and loading per the British drill puts the bulk of the cartridge paper under the ball, where it wads up and further reduce blowby.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Tower75]

Thanks. I couldn't remember the conversions.

 

[KentG]

Smithsonian Misc. Collections volume 129 (1956) is the source of info, it details paper cartridge manufacture from F&I to CW, drawings of how to make, summaries of US ordnance changes, etc. The original .69 US musket load was about 120, with 10 gr. allow for priming, later dropped to 90 due to better quality powder. I can't find a net copy, but google found a British web site with the book for sale:

SMALL ARMS AND AMMUNITION IN THE UNITED STATES SERVICE Berkeley R.Lewis, Smithsonian Ins. 1956, 24cm x 16cm, 338 pages plus 52 plates at the rear, Smithsonian miscellaneous collections . Volume 129 ( whole volume )

 

[ericb]

I believe it was in an ordinance document by Pickering where it was specified that for the .69 Musket a one ounce ball (.662/16 gauge) was to be used. That's what I shoot in my Charleville, wrapped in .005 newsprint cartridge, loaded wadding down. If you really slam the load down, you can feel the air compressing behind the cartridge, and in fact once when I released my grip on the ramrod after a quick slamload, the round came back up like a compressed air piston, and the ramrod went flying!

I would tend to agree that with the small balls they were using on the Video that there must have been an awful lot of blowby. Personally, I was unimpressed by the accuracy they achieved. I think if I, or any of the other serious MusketMen here shot groups like that, we would burn the video...

Eric

ps - In all fairness, if I was shooting such an undersize ball, I doubt I could have shot any better than they did...

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Last June, forum member Many Klatch took third place in the smoothbore silhouettes at Friendship Indiana. He shoots a .715 or .730 ball with a 10 thousands spit patch. Many Klatch hit three of the four bears at 120 yards, offhand. This is not a tight load, he does not need to short start this load. He shoots a Brown Bess carbine. His thumb started load is still much tighter than a paper patched military load. I thought I would add this to thread talking about smoothbore accuracy.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

That's some serious shooting with a smoothbore! How big are the bear targets?

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

They have to be at least 3,1/2 feet tall, standing bears. Much shorter than a standard human unless you are firing at hobbits.

 

[trent/OH]

They have to be at least 3,1/2 feet tall, standing bears. Much shorter than a standard human unless you are firing at hobbits.

The British hobbit regment was deployed to Moria during the American Revolution.

 

[pargent]

The smaller then what is considered correct now ball size was to enable continuous fire without having to stop to clean a fouled barrel, or worse yet a ball jammed half way down the barrel.A smooth bore will foul up quickly with continuous fire.when I shoot my own musket in competions I start out with a .60 ball an d after 5 to 7 shots i change to a .58 ball(both patched & this of course is to suite a 20 gauge ).

 

[Woodwright]

Smithsonian Misc. Collections volume 129 (1956)mentioned by KENTG can be downloaded free of charge at the following link:
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/86736#page/7/mode/1up

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

All of this depends on the standard of accuracy required. In the heyday of the Brown Bess, the standard was reliability of function and the ability to hit a target at no more than 100 yards. and keep firing at and hitting that target as it moved closer to you.

Did I say that the target that the Brown Bess was meant to hit accurately and reliably was a company front - approximately 5 feet tall and 100 feet wide and at least five feet deep? Today's target is a piece of paper that is not moving and is certainly not coming at you with murder in it's eye. And no one is screaming at you demanding you load and fire as rapidly as you can.:shocked2:

It's comparing two entirely different things, but the reading has been fun.

 

[KentG]

Thank you Woodwright! My google-fu was too weak. Amazing its in a "biodiversity" library!