Real Hawken or not?

[Tanglefoot]

I am not one of the experts listed anywhere, but John Baird was a friend and I believe he was such. He passed away some years ago. Another is Art Ressel, who collects original Hawkens and who reopened Jake & Sam’s St. Louis Hawken Shop and operated it for years. He sold it and moved to Seattle the last I heard. At one time I had the joy and privilege of “finding” an original Hawken - a .36 caliber - at a show in Houston. It very much resembled the one pictured in this thread. I called Art at the time and he subsequently bought that rifle for his collection. You might consider tracking him down and talking to him. There are also a number of Hawken rifles on display at the Buffalo Bill Firearms Museum in Cody, Wyoming. Their expert might be of help. The folks at the Smithsonian are generally very interested and helpful also, though sometimes slow to respond. As a footnote, I was once the owner of a Volcanic Rifle in good working condition, having bought it from a friend of my father’s when that gentleman was selling a summer home and cleaning out the attic prior to the sale. I later sold it (reluctantly). Good luck to you, and please — Let us know how your search for confirmation turns out?

 

[Cvkotvkse]

The hexagon bore shape/style tells me that it's likely a 180 ( +/-) year old gun.

Yes, by now the brass should have a dark brown patina, unless it was stored in an air-tight environment - was it well wrapped when you found it ?

FWIW, original S. Hawken rifles would bring extremely big money, today - most are now museum pieces.

The only things I found in my house after I bought it was an old stereo & a Daisy BB-gun - both hidden under the eaves , behind a knee wall

Some of the old Daisy's are collector's items, as well!

 

[Tanglefoot]

Dave, Looking at the latest photos you posted, of the items that were with the rifle, I believe that the smaller item made of horn that appears to be attached to the powder horn with a thong is actually a powder measure, not a blowing horn. It also appears that the material in the lid of the brass box with the round balls in it is filled with the residue of patch lube, perhaps beeswax or a mix of beeswax and tallow.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Dave, Looking at the latest photos you posted, of the items that were with the rifle, I believe that the smaller item made of horn that appears to be attached to the powder horn with a thong is actually a powder measure, not a blowing horn. It also appears that the material in the lid of the brass box with the round balls in it is filled with the residue of patch lube, perhaps beeswax or a mix of beeswax and tallow.

@Tanglefoot

This image from post #22 is the one we thought might be a blowing horn:



This image, from post#39, does indeed show what appears to be a powder measure attached to the powder horn:



Interestingly, the powder charger looks to me as if it is made of metal, maybe heavily tarnished brass or copper. I've never seen another one quite like it. I wonder if it might have been some odd metal part that was repurposed as a powder charger.

Thanks to Dave for posting all of this!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[DiMarco_Mercantile]

I love that little brass container, I’ll have to see about finding one similar if that’s possible!

 

[Kabulrocks]

Just so happens that I had to go into town, so I stopped by the J.M. Davis museum. It’s been closed for a few months for renovations, and recently re-opened. The big upgrade was to replace the display lights with LED lights, better illuminating things. Here’s a new video of the Hawken “squirrel” rifle:

 

[Kabulrocks]

Another video of the Hawken “Squirrel” rifle at the JM Davis museum:

 

[Kabulrocks]

And another of the JM Davis Hawken “Squirrel” rifle:

 

[Tanglefoot]

Bob, You’re right. I missed that pic. That does look like a blowing horn.
I can’t tell from the photos if the measure is metal or not. Looked like black horn to me, but then I have a Colt pistol flask in my collection that’s oxidized to about the same color too. About DiMarco’s comment: You might try Ted Cash for a brass box like that one. It also looks very much like a compass I have that belonged to my grandfather. Round, heavy brass, about 3 inches in diameter.

 

[Patched]

I have seen and studied closely more than 50 original Hawkens, including the Bridger Hawken in my avatar at left. I believe this is an original Sam Hawken "St Louis squirrel rifle", made for the local trade. I believe it is as made and has not been cut down. It has some unusual features for a local gun, including the drum and nipple. It closely matches the J.M. Davis Gun Museum Hawken Kabulrocks posted. I note a stout ramrod and a long length of pull. I am not an authority and my comments do not authenticate this as a Hawken. I do not know who could authenticate this as a Hawken, but I am absolutely certain it is an unmodified original. You can take that to the bank. Oops- just saw Frontier's post of the drum not matching the lock plate cutout. That is a modification I can't explain. It looks like it was made that way.

I’m 100% on board with Herb that this rifle is as it was made …no mods or upgrades…( drum fits the lockplate ). I speculate that the rifle has seen such little use because as this gun went further west it became less useful or desirable as a viable weapon for everyday use or as a trade item (due the small caliber) and as such sat on a store shelf or in storage.

What a great find and prize for the OP ….thanks for sharing this wonderful experience…from the pictures and the stor, my money says the gun is authentic.

 

[Patched]

Here’s pictures of a fancier ”for local trade Hawken” with a similar toe plate, lock panel and butt plate as the OP’s rifle.

 

[Herb]

Oops on my comment about the drum and nipple. I built a copy of a St. Louis Squirrel rifle in 2006, from photos of it for sale on Gunbroker (?). It was a drum and nipple.

 

[Herb]

Can't make the picture work...

 

[Cvkotvkse]

Fantastic rifle and lost in time group of items.

A freakin' time capsule!

 

[beardedhorse]

warlike39, From what I can see in the photo, the bore is not hexagonal as in a Whitworth but 7 grooves and lands which was typical of rifles from Sam and Jakes St. Louis shop. Maybe you can verify this. The S. Hawken St. Louis barrel stamp can be compared to those of other rifles of known vintage to determine if it was an early or later piece.
A brass bore gauge will give you an approximate caliber because not being an even number of lands and grooves you will have a land opposite a groove. Plastic digital caliper jaws should not harm the muzzle. Dropping a plastic coated aluminum bobber light down the bore will allow you to check the rate of twist on the rifling better than trying to look past a small bore light at the crown. I t will come out easily and not damage the bore.
Have you weighed the rifle? A collector from California named Gene used to display at our annual gun show and had a small caliber Hawken half stock. Not the heavy caliber and barrel half stock Plains rifles we often see. Yours doesn't look different than his.
A recent book published by the NMLRA was written by Bob Woodfill and called The Hawken Rifle - Its Evolution from 1822 to 1870. Hard to acquire and costs around $50.00. John Baird wrote two books on Hawken rifles and Charles Hanson one called The Hawken Rifle - Its rightful place in history. Jim
Gordon's books on Great Gun Makers of the West have excellent photography and has a Hawken or two. Are the letters scrawled on the cast german silver or pewter (?) nosecap " A A C"? Is the terminal end of the underbid filled with a solder? Solid milled under barrel ribs were used later on.
Any flats on the drum for screwing it onto the barrel?

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

During the time I worked in retail firearms, I rarely saw period pieces like this one appears to be. When I did, there was always something amiss with it... parts missing, screws buggered up, cracks/splits and LOTS of rust. Saw an original Brown Bess once that had the last foot or so of barrel blown off. These days, you gotta be real careful about fakes, but in 1965 when the house was sealed up, this was not such a problem. The four corners area, if memory serves is a pretty arid region... which would have helped preserve the gun.

Somebody polished the brass on it... which is something I did see often on period guns because the people who had them thought they would be making them more valuable if they used enough Brasso.

You've been given good advice here, but I will re-emphasize: take that gun somewhere and have it appraised, Take lots of pictures. Put the appraisal into a safe deposit box at a bank somewhere and whatever you do... don't shoot it! Right now, it is worth a considerable sum of money... if/when you crack the stock, break the hammer or bulge the barrel, it will be worth considerably less than it is now.

After you get the appraisal and insurance sorted out, hang it on a wall somewhere, do as much research as you can, write your own accounts and keep all that with the appraisal.

Alternatively.... send it to me. I promise to take good care of it.

 

[brushblind]

You need to get some insurance on that and seal it up in a bank vault somewhere! Looks like a genuine S Hawken and you might be shocked when you find the value. Last August one sold at auction for almost 58,000.00 dollars. A unique provenance could make it even more.

 

[warbike39]

Warbike, as a 2nd, I believe you should plan a trip with the rifle and extras to the Hawken Classic in August. See you there!

Sounds good thank you all for your help and input. If there is something else you want to see please let me know. Here are a few more pics and pics of the unfinished horn, the mold pliers? And lead pouring spoon that were found with the rifle.
D

 

[warbike39]

During the time I worked in retail firearms, I rarely saw period pieces like this one appears to be. When I did, there was always something amiss with it... parts missing, screws buggered up, cracks/splits and LOTS of rust. Saw an original Brown Bess once that had the last foot or so of barrel blown off. These days, you gotta be real careful about fakes, but in 1965 when the house was sealed up, this was not such a problem. The four corners area, if memory serves is a pretty arid region... which would have helped preserve the gun.

Somebody polished the brass on it... which is something I did see often on period guns because the people who had them thought they would be making them more valuable if they used enough Brasso.

You've been given good advice here, but I will re-emphasize: take that gun somewhere and have it appraised, Take lots of pictures. Put the appraisal into a safe deposit box at a bank somewhere and whatever you do... don't shoot it! Right now, it is worth a considerable sum of money... if/when you crack the stock, break the hammer or bulge the barrel, it will be worth considerably less than it is now.

After you get the appraisal and insurance sorted out, hang it on a wall somewhere, do as much research as you can, write your own accounts and keep all that with the appraisal.

Alternatively.... send it to me. I promise to take good care of it.

Haha great advice thanks. As I said before I've never cleaned polished or touched anything. I did check to make sure it wasn't loaded. I would never shoot it but after I get it truly looked at and appraised I would lime to let a handful of real Hawken guys examine it in person, photograph it as they please and then possibly find a new owner that will truly appreciate it and give it a good home.
D I will continue to add a few more pics.

 

[warbike39]

To be secreted in such a fashion. Someone had the foresight and the future value of such an item. And not to mention it to anyone adds to the mystery.

When the husband if the elderly lady had passed in 1965 they sealed his 60 by 80 shop up and it wasn't opened again until I bought it in the late 90s. Inside was an almost completely rebuilt full size real Conestoga wagon....other than that there were some old oilfield wrenches and it was empty.
The shop was completely grown over with ivy and small elm trees had to be cut down in front of shop and the winch on my jeep used to get the doors open.