Real Hawken or not?

[KevinC]

I tried to sell the Conestoga wagon but like this rifle people wanted to offer me a hundred bucks for it so I donated it to a Museum there in New Mexico. When I went to visit it, someone had stolen it before it was even displayed.
Dave

That is so awful.
People can be the absolute worst.

I hope that you do better than that end with your Hawken. That really is such a cool find.
Good on you for going the extra mile searching that building, or it may have been lost forever.

 

[rcbelding]

I've handled/examined maybe a half-dozen original Hawkens produced for the local market. I can't recall one with a drum rather than patent breech. The buttplate looks much narrower than the rifles I've examined, but the pics are shot at screwy angles and it is hard to tell. From the muzzle at least, the rifling looks correct. The nosecap and toeplate don't look right, but I'm comparing them to a small sample size.

I agree about drum. This needs a really good expert examination.

 

[deerstalkert]

authenticated Hawken.

 

[Mulebrain]

It may have been noticed already, but this barrel doesn't match up with the tang. It was setup for a patent breech, but the barrel has a drum.
You can see where the lock panel was filled in etc..... It surely didn't come out of the Hawken shop like this.

 

[MosesWhite]

That would be my guess unless someone stamped the Hawken name on the barrel to mislead someone many years ago.

I have looked the photos over closely and I am totally convinced the rifle is an authentic Hawken squirrel rifle from the Hawken shop . I believe the drum and nipple was a modification done during its period of use .
I have studied and inspected well over a hundred Hawken rifles.

 

[DuncNZ]

I think it needs to be taken apart very carefully by some one who knows what they are doing and examined , this will show if the barrel wedge has been repositioned when and if the barrel was shortened , give a better look at the breach and inside the lock . Until that is done all is speculation .Stamps are hard to duplicate and the word spacing and type looks identical to photographs in my books .

 

[Mulebrain]

I think the rifle is authentic as well. For some reason the patent breech was replaced. Maybe there were ignition issues which caused the change. I am also not sure why solder fill in under the forward part of the tang.

 

[Herb]

Mulebrain, I agree with you. I also now think the patent breech was replaced. Where is that solder fill you mention?

 

[springfield art]

I see in the Hawken book by Bob Woodfill, that Hawken made small, regular-type guns for the local trade; not everything was a large caliber buffalo huntin' Mountain Man sort of rifle. So there may be guns out there marked Hawken that are not Jeramiah Johnsons or Hugh Glasses, but just something that locals would use for normal hunting and such.

 

[Mulebrain]

Mulebrain, I agree with you. I also now think the patent breech was replaced. Where is that solder fill you mention?

Herb, if you click on his picture I reposted, you can zoom it and see the fill I speak of

 

[Notchy Bob]

Old-time percussion caps were very corrosive, and percussion rifles that were heavily used sometimes show erosion or burning of the breech around the nipple. this is not to mention any corrosion that might occur in the bore at the breech. It was not unusual for rifles to be re-breeched. James Josiah Webb described having his rifle, "Old Blackfoot," fitted with a new "breech pin." It is my understanding that this was typically done by cutting off a couple of inches at the breech and moving the barrel back in the stock.

I was thinking this rifle might have been originally fitted with some sort of patent breech. If it was cut at the breech and moved back, the smith who did it might not have had the wherewithal to fit it up with a new patent breech, hence the drum and nipple. He might have thought the "fence" that was originally present was a nice feature, so he left it. I can only speculate.

It would be hard to say, until an expert examines the rifle "in person."

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[warbike39]

So, how many offers have you received so far?

I've had a few offers, everyone seems to want it but they want it for the price of a repop Hawken.
Dave

 

[necchi]

I've had a few offers,

Wow, welcome back, it's good to see you make your bi-annual check in to freshen up the topic..
Anything else to share or is it just about the barn find?

 

[warbike39]

Wow, welcome back, it's good to see you make your bi-annual check in to freshen up the topic..
Anything else to share or is it just about the barn find?

One of your members was asking me if I had anyone verify the rifle and asked if i still had it or had sold it. As far as the rifle goes m, that's about all I have to share until I get back to the mainland from Hawaii and will try to get someone else to inspect the rifle. I did find that the larger blowing horn had the same initials carved into it as the pewter nose piece of the rifle. You have to tilt it in just the right light to see it.

 

[necchi]

Ok, just wondering..
I wasn't trying to glorify or discredit the topic, just asking if there was an update. Looking forward to your return.
Stay safe,,

 

[PathfinderNC]

This is such an exciting and fascinating thread and story.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

I don't think I will get a good nights sleep until this is resolved by a professional...exciting!

 

[CaptainVane]

Let me ask a question. Everything I have read including articles in MuzzleBlast by Hawken historians said that the Hawken bros used iron hardware not brass. I didn’t read 8 pages, so if this was addressed, never mind.

 

[warbike39]

Let me ask a question. Everything I have read including articles in MuzzleBlast by Hawken historians said that the Hawken bros used iron hardware not brass. I didn’t read 8 pages, so if this was addressed, never mind.

They used brass too, do some research and you will see alot of guns utilizing brass hardware.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Let me ask a question. Everything I have read including articles in MuzzleBlast by Hawken historians said that the Hawken bros used iron hardware not brass. I didn’t read 8 pages, so if this was addressed, never mind.

They did sometimes. The Hawken "mountain rifles," meaning the ones that first come to mind for most of us when we hear the word "Hawken," were typically iron mounted. However, they weren't all mountain rifles. This one, stamped S. Hawken, is believed to be one of their "California Rifles":




All brass mounts. Another atypical feature is that it only has one barrel wedge instead of the customary two. For more information on the one shown above, go to Morphy Auctions: Samuel Hawken Rifle

Here is another brass-mounted Hawken, from Rock Island Auctions:





Rock Island is pretty good at authenticating the things they sell, but this one sold eight years ago for $4313, which seems kind of low for a genuine Hawken. Maybe collectors had some concerns. The S. HAWKEN stamp on the barrel was crooked. That may have given some potential buyers pause. In any event, it is a brass-mounted rifle with the Hawken name stamped on the barrel. The authenticity of first rifle shown, from Morphy Auctions, was not questioned to my knowledge.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob