DOUBLEDEUCE 1
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To sheath/ cover (safety one), or not to sheath/ cover (safety off)…
Running with scissors…
Running with scissors…
Regarding Carrying Tomahawks
- Thread starter DiMarco_Mercantile
- Start date
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@cornstalk
Thank you for your interest! I did not get the Mackenzie tomahawk. I didn't even bid on it. I lurk a lot on the auction sites, just window shopping, because you never know what's going to turn up. There have been some historically significant pieces changing hands lately, but the prices are just out of consideration for me.
I actually found that tomahawk online while looking for something else. However, if you Google "alexander mackenzie tomahawk," you'll get a number of hits that will take you to websites with more information. One webpage with information on this piece, with a portrait of its former owner, is here: Barneby's Magazine: Mackenzie Tomahawk
I think this sale was handled by Morphy Auctions, and this is their page describing this piece: Alexander Mackenzie Tomahawk
The Morphy webpage has some additional photographs, and down at the bottom of the page, they deal with the financial matters. If I am reading it right, it looks like this tomahawk and its sheath sold for $156,000.00. That is not a typo.
@Rudyard ,
Thank you for mentioning Milton & Cheadle! I read their book cover to cover maybe eight or so years ago. I have a paper copy, but it is also available to read online for free, right here: The North-West Passage By Land
This is a very readable, informative, and enjoyable account of travel across Canada, from Quebec to British Columbia, in 1862-1863. Lord Milton and Dr. Cheadle were very keen sportsmen and adventurous travelers. They documented lots of hunting stories and encounters with traders and Indians. Here is a portrait from the book:
Lord Milton is second from the left, with Dr. Cheadle in the center. Second from the right is "the Assiniboine," who was their guide. Note that this man had a musket burst some time previously to his employment with Milton & Cheadle, resulting in a crippled right hand. You can see this clearly in the image. The lady on the far right is "Mrs. Assiniboine," and the younger fellow with the trade musket, on the far left, is their son.
Just so I won't be faulted for vectoring off topic, I would direct people's attention to the two hatchets or tomahawks in the picture. I don't know how these were carried, but for what it's worth, neither appears to have a sheath.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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Who makes that pipe hawk head on the right?
Thanks for sharing that info! Figured it went for more than I can afford as well. WAY too significantly important.
Where fighting hawks really kept that sharp? Did everyone on the frontier (including NDNs) have a box of ******* files to clean things up?
Like sabers, I suspect they were not sharpened.
Also, Allen Eckert writes about Simon Kenton first meeting Jacob Greathouse…Greathouse wore a tomahawk in a sheath under his arm that he very deftly used to hit Kenton in the side of the head…a blow he never saw coming.
Like sabers, I suspect they were not sharpened.
Also, Allen Eckert writes about Simon Kenton first meeting Jacob Greathouse…Greathouse wore a tomahawk in a sheath under his arm that he very deftly used to hit Kenton in the side of the head…a blow he never saw coming.
So I think everyone is right. And here's why.
Folks back then were exactly like the folks before them, exactly like us, and exactly like the folks that come after us. Made up of all kinds of folks at various rungs on the ladder of evolution.
First you had, have, and will have the hoopleheads. They represented, represent, and will represent the greatest percentage of the worlds population. Came to the wilderness completely unprepared. Have no common sense. They shot themselves, they cut themselves with their knives, hawks and axes cause the carried them unsheathed, or chopped or cut at themselves. They burned themselves in their own fire. Got caught in their own traps. Injuns killed them quickly if they hadn't already accidentally killed themselves before. We don't get to read about them other than they were killed. So we aren't sure what or how they carried anything.
[These will be the first people I'll eat in a survival situation, starting with the Vegans, then the Vegetarians, and then the Omnivores. Heh, don't judge me- at least I'm trying to eat healthy.]
Second you had, have, and will have the folks that are smart intellectually but not too smart streetwise, or wilderness wise in this case. If they make it there is generally some element of luck involved. Believe it or not I'm going to put Jedidiah Smith in this category. He was clearly very smart intellectually. He even armed himself well with a rifle and two pistols. And he was very lucky right up to the point that he wasn't. Charismatic for sure as evidenced by how many folks would follow him, alhough most of those were likely hoopleheads. But actually as a leader he was terrible. Got his men killed on three separate occasions. His luck is what kept him from getting killed each of those times. And let's face it, after the first bunch got killed, if it wasn't for the hoopleheads it be hard to get anyone to follow him again. I'm gonna go 50/50 on a person like this carrying an edged weapon at their waistline unsheathed (I actually have no idea what the split would be so I figured I go with the weatherman choice). Eventually Jedidiah Smith's luck run oft.
Third you had, have, and will have the folks that are both intellectually and street (wilderness) smart. They made it through their time in the wilderness to be killed by disease or old age. Some wrote books, some got books writ for em. Whether they carried edged weapons unsheathed probably depended on the circumstance. Like perhaps you got to impress the ladies, or maybe a painter, or perhaps the injuns are about to strike and you know it, or maybe you have gender identity issues and need a change, and probably a bunch of other possibilities. Even these folks might have a lapse of common sense and just enough luck to get away with something, but are smart enough to never do that again.
[In full disclosure that's kinda been my way. Figure by now I've used up what little luck I had so try to remind myself to be sure and think beforehand and avoid that whole "hey don't do anything stupid without me" thing.]
Any way that's my take on the whole sheath thing. Worth exactly what you paid for it.
Folks back then were exactly like the folks before them, exactly like us, and exactly like the folks that come after us. Made up of all kinds of folks at various rungs on the ladder of evolution.
First you had, have, and will have the hoopleheads. They represented, represent, and will represent the greatest percentage of the worlds population. Came to the wilderness completely unprepared. Have no common sense. They shot themselves, they cut themselves with their knives, hawks and axes cause the carried them unsheathed, or chopped or cut at themselves. They burned themselves in their own fire. Got caught in their own traps. Injuns killed them quickly if they hadn't already accidentally killed themselves before. We don't get to read about them other than they were killed. So we aren't sure what or how they carried anything.
[These will be the first people I'll eat in a survival situation, starting with the Vegans, then the Vegetarians, and then the Omnivores. Heh, don't judge me- at least I'm trying to eat healthy.]
Second you had, have, and will have the folks that are smart intellectually but not too smart streetwise, or wilderness wise in this case. If they make it there is generally some element of luck involved. Believe it or not I'm going to put Jedidiah Smith in this category. He was clearly very smart intellectually. He even armed himself well with a rifle and two pistols. And he was very lucky right up to the point that he wasn't. Charismatic for sure as evidenced by how many folks would follow him, alhough most of those were likely hoopleheads. But actually as a leader he was terrible. Got his men killed on three separate occasions. His luck is what kept him from getting killed each of those times. And let's face it, after the first bunch got killed, if it wasn't for the hoopleheads it be hard to get anyone to follow him again. I'm gonna go 50/50 on a person like this carrying an edged weapon at their waistline unsheathed (I actually have no idea what the split would be so I figured I go with the weatherman choice). Eventually Jedidiah Smith's luck run oft.
Third you had, have, and will have the folks that are both intellectually and street (wilderness) smart. They made it through their time in the wilderness to be killed by disease or old age. Some wrote books, some got books writ for em. Whether they carried edged weapons unsheathed probably depended on the circumstance. Like perhaps you got to impress the ladies, or maybe a painter, or perhaps the injuns are about to strike and you know it, or maybe you have gender identity issues and need a change, and probably a bunch of other possibilities. Even these folks might have a lapse of common sense and just enough luck to get away with something, but are smart enough to never do that again.
[In full disclosure that's kinda been my way. Figure by now I've used up what little luck I had so try to remind myself to be sure and think beforehand and avoid that whole "hey don't do anything stupid without me" thing.]
Any way that's my take on the whole sheath thing. Worth exactly what you paid for it.
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Just don't hop into the passenger seat of your wife's new Ford Explorer while imagining it's your friend the freight wagon driver giving you a lift to the Tradin' Post.
user 48702
Richard Turner
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No need for files. One would be amazed at the edge that can be achieved using available stones found in their geographical location. I can't see a cutting tool or implement such as a hawk, (which is designed for having an edge), being dubbed in order to prevent the user from injuring his own self. One might as well carry a hammer to bludgeon their adversary. The hawks were not only for used by natives or hostiles in combat, but also used for skinning and quartering game as well as cutting material for shelter and fire.
It is also a misnomer that military issue sabers were not sharpened. Sabers were issued unsharpened so as not to injure man nor horse during practice/training; however, many had their sabers sharpened by the armorer prior to heading into battle or joining a campaign when time permitted. When not in conflict, the sabers were used for training wherein the edge was dulled due to the drawing and returning the saber to the scabbard, many of which were made of steel. Also, once a blade is sharpened, it requires more maintenance due to wear and tear from the scabbard and damage during training. So just because a 18th or 19th century saber is found to be unsharpened doesn't mean it wasn't sharpened in the past. To this day, even though for ceremonial use, the USMC retains and maintains NCO and Officer's Swords (which is actually a saber), within the armory because they are still considered as martial arms.
Matt Easton has an outstanding channel regarding edged weapons from all points of the Globe, and is very knowledgeable regarding edged martial arms. I've learned much from him over the years. Military Swords - Why Were They Made & Issued Blunt?
Hoopleheads.... ...love that. Haven't heard that since I last watched Deadwood.
...love that. Haven't heard that since I last watched Deadwood.
And it’s period and historically correct.Hoopleheads....
I enjoyed Eckert, however he was writing a narrative and not a history, he was making a word movie of events. Just before this Kenton shot a turkey through the head at three hundred yards. While the general out lines of events happened I doubt it was as dramatic as presented
Kenton was seventeen, and would have at least learned the basics of fighting. While the mature Greathouse would no doubt have ‘whumped’ him I bet he wouldn’t have been able to move fast enough to have drawn his hawk and swung its side at Kenton’s head with out a response from Kenton getting out of the way.
Agreed, but Eckert wrote from first hand records of events, so it doesn’t seem like he would make that up.
That said, the 300 yard head shot has always bothered me…he should have known that was nearly impossible. I can’t even see a turkey head at 300 yards, much less hit one. I’ve often thought that was an editing typo and should have been 30 yards…
After several minutes of downloading this PDF file I come to realize it is of Harold L. Peterson's American Indian Tomahawks! I own a 1971 copy, which I bought new.
I have had axes made to order from the photographs in this book as well as other books. I have also adapted/ modified hatchets and ruff forgings in to the shapes I wanted.
I would suggest that you acquire a simple trade ax or pole ax in order to cover that span of time that you want to portray. Simple belt axes such as figures 25 through 37 in the book, or my favorites, spike axes 65 through 78.
Since I reenact I have sheaths to fit most (Required by the B.A.R.) or I use a universal / interchangeable leather sheath that I made.
I wear the "hawk" tucked in my belt, or in a baldric, or use a sheath with a shoulder sling.
I also take these stories with a grain of salt.
In his first book he tells how Catfish Creek and eventually the area i.e. Washington, Pa. (Where I live.) got its name. This story is pure fiction or a lie if you prefer as it was named after the historical Native American, Catfish, whose camp site was next to a tributary of Chartier's Creek on the present site of the Washington and Jefferson College football field.
Although I am no scholar, but when I read a book and find a lie I do not necessarily believe every thing else I read in that book or article.
How do you know which is the true story? Or did Catfish tell you himself?
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This is what I found.
Catfish Village. A former settlement, probably of the Delawares, on Cattish run, a short distance N. of the site of Washington, Washington co., Pa.; so called, according to Day (Penn., 666, 1843), from a half-blood who settled there about the middle of the 18th century. See Royce in 18th Rep. B. A. E., pi. clx 1900.
I have no idea, or opinion either way.
Elkhorse
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When I was logging I carried a hudson bay hatchet that had a short ash handle, I made. I'd put it through the belt to my chaps and face the blade AWAY from my elbow behind my hip on my left side. Worked great to hammer a small wedge in if the chainsaw started to bind when bucking logs to length. Carried a full sized Fiskars splitting axe to hammer wedges felling timber.
gunnyr
40 Cal
Thank you for posting. Enjoyed going through it. Going to settle down and read it all when the grand kids leave.
gunny
Autie1876
32 Cal
No Ron Eisert, a deceased friend and local historian of note and map maker researched it along with many of the over forty Washington/ Greene County refuge forts from the 18th Century.
