I read something on an online article today. It said that using oils in the gun after cleaning your gun with soap and water react badly with blackpowder. It said that using bore butter is better to use in the bore after cleaning. Does the rem oil I use after cleaning my gun create bad reactions with the blackpowder?
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Rem Oil or Bore Butter
- Thread starter luieb45
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Some folks believe all that about Bore Butter. I've restored several "shot out" barrels abandoned by friends after several years of seasoning with BB. Nice source of great guns at discount prices.
luie b said:
You are correct. Petrolium based oils will leave a film that does not react good with black powder. When fired, the petrolium oil will build a layer that builds up and forms a hard cake. Over time, it will reduce the bore size of the bore and also help promote rust pits. I know some will dispute this, but I want hard evidence to the contrary.
Actually, Ballistol is one of the best organic cleaners ever made. Germany has used it for over 100 years. I use it, hate the smell, but it cleans everything clean on the metal with very good effency and does not build up in the bore.
Just my opinion but it sounds like the article was written by someone who works for TC.
The tests that have been done over the years by independent people who are interested in finding the best rust preventative oils have shown that Bore Butter makes a rather poor rust preventative.
As for the washing with soap and water, that doesn't have anything to do with the fouling except it does make wiping some sort of rust preventative necessary after cleaning.
As for various oils and black powder fouling I ran tests to see if there was any truth to the idea that they will make matters worse.
I found that petroleum oils, which includes motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, 3 in 1 and a host of others, if left unwiped in the bore before shooting does indeed cause a hard fouling to be formed.
Animal and vegetable oils do not do this.
They may dampen the powder charge causing erratic pressures but they do not cause hard fouling to form.
The big problem with these animal/vegetable oils is that most of them aren't the best rust preventatives. One exception may be Castor Oil but left unthinned it is rather thick and does not lend itself to using it directly in a bore.
Over the years I've tried several different oils and, in my opinion the very best is Birchwood Caseys Sheath. That company has replaced this with a very similar oil called Barricade.
Both of these oils are very thin and after wiping the bore with them they seem to dry. They give excellent rust prevention.
Now, if you want to use a regular petroleum oil, it will work quite well.
The thing to remember is you will need to wipe it off before loading. A clean patch soaked with denatured alcohol will do the job and after wiping the petroleum oil out the black powder will never know the difference.
The tests that have been done over the years by independent people who are interested in finding the best rust preventative oils have shown that Bore Butter makes a rather poor rust preventative.
As for the washing with soap and water, that doesn't have anything to do with the fouling except it does make wiping some sort of rust preventative necessary after cleaning.
As for various oils and black powder fouling I ran tests to see if there was any truth to the idea that they will make matters worse.
I found that petroleum oils, which includes motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, 3 in 1 and a host of others, if left unwiped in the bore before shooting does indeed cause a hard fouling to be formed.
Animal and vegetable oils do not do this.
They may dampen the powder charge causing erratic pressures but they do not cause hard fouling to form.
The big problem with these animal/vegetable oils is that most of them aren't the best rust preventatives. One exception may be Castor Oil but left unthinned it is rather thick and does not lend itself to using it directly in a bore.
Over the years I've tried several different oils and, in my opinion the very best is Birchwood Caseys Sheath. That company has replaced this with a very similar oil called Barricade.
Both of these oils are very thin and after wiping the bore with them they seem to dry. They give excellent rust prevention.
Now, if you want to use a regular petroleum oil, it will work quite well.
The thing to remember is you will need to wipe it off before loading. A clean patch soaked with denatured alcohol will do the job and after wiping the petroleum oil out the black powder will never know the difference.
Some people won't use petroleum products in there BP rifles..I use rem oil or Birchwood Casey barricade on mine but I have one I haven't shot yet that the previous owner only used Bore Butter and it looks great...Either will work it's just personal preference..
any kind of petroleom based lube causes a reaction with real black powder when it burns and makes a substance like asphalt in the bore. As to the bore butter , it contains all natural materal , so dosn't cause this problem. Bore butter is a lube that has both many supporters and many who claim it dosn't protect the bore from rust. I have used it and never had a problem . The key is to use a natural lube. There are several to choose from. :thumbsup:
So could I use rem oil and wipe the bore before I go shooting and not have the baked on layer of crud? As to rust I haven't had any rust from cleaning my guns with the soap and water besides flash rust. I guess the rem oil has been working.
Dave Rosenthal
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The truth is you can use either, if done correctly.
But I will tell you a short story and let you decide. At a Boy Scout blacl powder demo I was in charge of, one of the other Dads brought up a .45 cap lock that was filled with bore butter, and I mean inside the flash channel and all! The stuff was coming out of the nipple! About ten minutes later, I had the thing actually shooting! Took several gallons of water, lots of patches, and lots of elbow grease. Moral to the story is too much of a good thing is just TOO MUCH! Bottom line, you want a clean, dry rifle to start, and if you give it a spit patch every so often, you can shoot it all day long!
Personally, I use hot water, Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine, lots of patches, then Barricade, then turn the rifle muzzle-down to drain-out any excess oil. It always goes bang, so I must be doing something right!
Dave
But I will tell you a short story and let you decide. At a Boy Scout blacl powder demo I was in charge of, one of the other Dads brought up a .45 cap lock that was filled with bore butter, and I mean inside the flash channel and all! The stuff was coming out of the nipple! About ten minutes later, I had the thing actually shooting! Took several gallons of water, lots of patches, and lots of elbow grease. Moral to the story is too much of a good thing is just TOO MUCH! Bottom line, you want a clean, dry rifle to start, and if you give it a spit patch every so often, you can shoot it all day long!
Personally, I use hot water, Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine, lots of patches, then Barricade, then turn the rifle muzzle-down to drain-out any excess oil. It always goes bang, so I must be doing something right!
Dave
rafterob
62 Cal.
I use rem oil or olive oil, whichever can is on hand at the time. I think the key here is that it is wiped out before loading/shooting. As mentioned, many of these articles are sponsored by the manufacturing companies so read them with a dose of skepticism and then come here and ask the experts :wink:
hanshi
Cannon
Bore Butter is a very poor rust preventative. It leaves a crusty, gunky layer when bp is fired in the greased bore. It won't do it with just one shot but over time will turn a bore into a sewer pipe.
I use whatever good quality gun oil/preservative I happen to have on hand and I have several on hand. Swab out your bore before a shooting session and you won't have any problem.
I use whatever good quality gun oil/preservative I happen to have on hand and I have several on hand. Swab out your bore before a shooting session and you won't have any problem.
That what bore butter did to my 50. I used it for years 12 years with pyrodex (Junk).My accurcy was falling off so I changed to holy black this last year boy oboy it was a different gun shot with a crack but no accurcy still . I could not get her clean so I used HOPPS #9 copper solvent and a brass brush man the crud that came out .Now it shoots better than it ever has no crack------- boom.Just BOOOOM!!! with the underling supersonic crack. Moral of the story is do not use Bore butter with subs and clean with soap and water over time it will fill your groves up with hard crusty Black glaze.
I completely agree with Zonie here - his post is exactly what I've experienced as well. Smokin' 50, too.
Black powder (and substitute black powder) combustion occurs at temperatures too low to completely burn low distillate petroleum products, so you're left with a tar-like byproduct. You either need to completely clean it out before shooting, or use a high distillate such as the mineral oil or cutting oil products (Ballistol, Butch's Bore Shine, etc.)
I used to use Bore Butter exclusively as both a patch lube and rust preventative (it smelled better than Ballistol), and it unfortunately did neither job as well as I wanted. I changed to Ballistol, using it full strength as a rust preventative and diluted with water and then dried as a patch lube. Worked very well in both applications. However, I'm now using Barricade as the rust preventative in an experiment and it's working very well so I'll probably change to that exclusively in the future. Diluted Ballistol is still my patch lube.
Black powder (and substitute black powder) combustion occurs at temperatures too low to completely burn low distillate petroleum products, so you're left with a tar-like byproduct. You either need to completely clean it out before shooting, or use a high distillate such as the mineral oil or cutting oil products (Ballistol, Butch's Bore Shine, etc.)
I used to use Bore Butter exclusively as both a patch lube and rust preventative (it smelled better than Ballistol), and it unfortunately did neither job as well as I wanted. I changed to Ballistol, using it full strength as a rust preventative and diluted with water and then dried as a patch lube. Worked very well in both applications. However, I'm now using Barricade as the rust preventative in an experiment and it's working very well so I'll probably change to that exclusively in the future. Diluted Ballistol is still my patch lube.
paulvallandigham
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If you flush the bore with alcohol before you go to the range, the alcohol removes the wax, as well as the oil in Bore Butter, and you have no problems with build up.
If you clean between shots, you don't get a build up of residue in the barrel.
If you use a bore brush when cleaning the barrel at the end of a shooting session, it will break loose any crud you failed to remove, and you will have no problems with Bore Butter.
Do NOT use the Subs, unless you are prepared to use Modern gun cleaning SOLVENTS to clean the bore. Substitute powders are for all practical purposes, "Smokeless Powders", and you need the modern solvents, to remove the residue they produce. As long as you understand the limits of cleaning products, you should not suffer the ill effects you have described. :thumbsup:
If you clean between shots, you don't get a build up of residue in the barrel.
If you use a bore brush when cleaning the barrel at the end of a shooting session, it will break loose any crud you failed to remove, and you will have no problems with Bore Butter.
Do NOT use the Subs, unless you are prepared to use Modern gun cleaning SOLVENTS to clean the bore. Substitute powders are for all practical purposes, "Smokeless Powders", and you need the modern solvents, to remove the residue they produce. As long as you understand the limits of cleaning products, you should not suffer the ill effects you have described. :thumbsup:
Wow, revealing thread. I was using Bore Butter and found light rust in the bores but thought gee maybe I did something wrong. After reading this thread it appears I am NOT the lone ranger with the opine that bore butter is not good for black powder bores... I will go back to olive oil or barricade. Thanks guys!
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Regarding Bore Butter, I advise you to never use that stuff for "protecting" your bore. It is absolute manure for that purpose and this comes from experience.
Several years ago I was shooting my T/C .54 cal Hawken and noticed that its accuracy with roundballs had dropped off significantly since shooting it last, probably a couple of years previous. I also noticed that my patches had little tears in them.
When I got home and cleaned the rifle, I dropped a light into the bore and saw that it was dark and rough looking, obviously corroded. This was a rifle that I had been "protecting" with bore butter, as T/C recommended in its manual. At the time I had two other rifles, a CVA Mountain Rifle that I probably had not shot in 7-8 years and owned since 1978, and a Cabela's Hawken replica that was made by Hastings Barrel Co. for Cabela's. Both of these rifles had never been protected with anything other than a good gun oil. When I dropped a light into the bores to check them, they were bright and perfect looking.
When I called T/C and told the technician my story, he confirmed to me that bore butter was worthless in protecting a bore and that they had several returned to them with the same problem as mine. They just made more money by selling Bore Butter as a "preservative" than they lost having to replace the few barrels where customers actually dropped lights down them and saw the damage. He told me to return it, and within about a week T/C sent me out a brand new barrel.
Several years ago I was shooting my T/C .54 cal Hawken and noticed that its accuracy with roundballs had dropped off significantly since shooting it last, probably a couple of years previous. I also noticed that my patches had little tears in them.
When I got home and cleaned the rifle, I dropped a light into the bore and saw that it was dark and rough looking, obviously corroded. This was a rifle that I had been "protecting" with bore butter, as T/C recommended in its manual. At the time I had two other rifles, a CVA Mountain Rifle that I probably had not shot in 7-8 years and owned since 1978, and a Cabela's Hawken replica that was made by Hastings Barrel Co. for Cabela's. Both of these rifles had never been protected with anything other than a good gun oil. When I dropped a light into the bores to check them, they were bright and perfect looking.
When I called T/C and told the technician my story, he confirmed to me that bore butter was worthless in protecting a bore and that they had several returned to them with the same problem as mine. They just made more money by selling Bore Butter as a "preservative" than they lost having to replace the few barrels where customers actually dropped lights down them and saw the damage. He told me to return it, and within about a week T/C sent me out a brand new barrel.
Holy Moly. Great story!
And on the "Bore Butter" thing---it is all in the name, and in the marketing. Like Thompson's Water Seal. manure for protecting wood.
Bore Butter sounds like a good name. Simple. Funny. You just want to use it. But the stuff sucks.
And on the "Bore Butter" thing---it is all in the name, and in the marketing. Like Thompson's Water Seal. manure for protecting wood.
Bore Butter sounds like a good name. Simple. Funny. You just want to use it. But the stuff sucks.
