revolver loading & Triple 7 questions

[huck]

I've read lots of loading advice advocating leaving one chamber empty if you're not planning to immediately shoot, which seems perfectly reasonable and prudent. But I just bought an 1858 Remington, and notice that it has detents between the chambers that you can set the hammer against to avoid having it sitting on a loaded chamber (or an empty one). Are most of these old cap-n-ball revolvers not like that? Is there some reason loading all 6 and leaving the hammer on that detent between chambers is a bad idea?

Another question: I know many like shooting black powder (particularly the purists!). I generally use Pyrodex in my GPR, though, and am planning to try Triple 7. If it makes cleanup easier, and is truely less corrosive than BP or Pyrodex, I may stick with it, and use it in the revolver as well. Does anyone know how corrosive it seems to be (other than the propaganda)? And is it substantially cleaner? Could a person possibly get away without using a lubricant to reduce the fouling, and just shoot it "dry"? (I'm thinking if the fouling's substantially reduced - that might actually be "cleaner"...but I don't want to gum it all up, either.)

Any thoughts or suggestions...actual experience with T7?

Thanks much,

Huck

 

[huck]

Also, what's the recommended way to clean up all the heavy oil on a new gun? Should it come COMPLETELY apart, including the action - or is that better left alone?

 

[Don]

Huck,

No need to take your revolver completely apart to clean off packing grease, just the barrel, frame and cylinder. If your 1858 is steel framed I highly recommend 777. Took a 1/2 hour off my cleaning time. It burns a lot cleaner but is still corrosive so treat it like pyrodex or BP as far as cleaning goes. 777 is also hotter so back off loads by 15% to avoid over stressing the gun. I have used 777 in my brass framed guns but with very light loads. Now that I have a steel framed gun I'll go back to pyrodex in the brass framed guns and save the 777 for the steel one. Velocities are good with 777 too and will turn your revolver into a nice effective back-up to your long gun. Won't kill a grizzly but will discourage most 4 or 2 legged critters from gettin too aggresive. Good luck.

Don

 

[Markwhiz]

What Don said. :agree:

I do shoot 3fg 777 in my brass framed 1858 and have had ZERO issues with it.............shoot 27gr with a .454 ball as a max load. 777 definitely makes clean-up faster & easier - I love the stuff.

As far as only loading 5 cylinders - it isn't a requirement as your pistol DOES have those intermediate notchs for a safe hammer carry. At the range I load all six since I know I'll be shooting them very soon under controlled circumstances. If I take it in the field, I do only load 5 as an extra precaution and if I feel like I might need that 6th shot, I just bring along a pre-loaded back-up cylinder too (5 rounds). Since I don't think I'll have to qwell any Injun attacks - 10 shots will be plenty.

And while it may not be too good for bear............my son sure laid a small boar out with my 1858 a couple years ago. ::

 

[Zonie]

The notches on your Remingtons cylinder were indeed to rest the nose of the hammer in "making it safe".
Colt has little pins between the chambers on the back of the cylinder. These fit into a notch which is cut into the face of the hammer.

Both of these methods were intended to permit the gun to have all six cylinders loaded and still be safe.
The people who really believed this were military men and IMO were more concerned with having all six chambers loaded than with the soldier who might shoot himself.
One should also remember these guns, when used in the military were carried in holsters which had full flaps on the top. These reduce the chanch of the hammer being disloged by a branch.

These "safetys" are not to be trusted.
As none of us are in a combat zone, there is no reason to load all 6 chambers, so be safe and load only 5.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The original 1858 Remingtons didn't have the notches between the nipples. That was the Model 1863 New Army. I think it is a step to prevent forgeries and a concession to safety. If you're comfy with it, it beats six capped & loaded without the notches. Expecting a battle that you need all six shots instead of five?

 

[huck]

Expecting a battle that you need all six shots instead of five?

You're almost as big a wise-ass as my little brother! No, really...point taken. I'm not going to be doing anything where I NEED more than 5 shots. Just plinking and MAYBE carrying it as a side-arm when hunting...but probably mostly just target shooting, or some variation on that. I was really just wondering if keeping it on an empty chamber was really any safer than using the notches...but I certainly don't need them all loaded.

My wise-ass brother's comment about a cap-n-ball revolver was wondering if I was gonna be able to watch the balls on their way to the target. Of course, while he hunts with a muzzleloader, he'll only use a modern in-line with shotgun primers, sabots, and 150 gr. of Pyrodex - doesn't understand why I'd want to use an old percussion cap...much less why anyone would want to hunt with a flintlock. Mostly, he likes to give me sh*t.

Thanks for the advice, everyone! What's the quick and easy suggestion for lube (as I'd like to get out to try it out this weekend, yet, but don't really want to use crisco) - does Bore Butter work o.k.? How dirty will the Triple 7 make it? Do I HAVE to use some kind of lube (chainfire concerns aside) with the Triple 7 - if it burns considerably cleaner? I don't think anyone had really addressed that part of my question yet - I'll check again in case I managed to miss it.

 

[Markwhiz]

Huck,

Use the lube..............both for the safty and for the fact that you'll get better accuracy with the lube and more shots for the day before you have to give it a good cleaning. Bore Butter will do a fine job and it's an easily found lube too. I use it or CVA Patch grease when I shoot. I also use lubed Wonder Wads as well between the powder & projectile - that's for added safety as well as it helps take up the extra space in a loaded cylinder. This makes it easier to compress the ball firmly against the powder with ther ram and the closer the ball is to the outside edge of the cylinder, the more accurate it will be when fired (like handloading a bullet close to the lands on a centerfire rifle).

 

[Gatofeo]

Huck:
See my Oct. 13, 2004 post, "How to Best Use a Cap and Ball Revolver." Lots of good info in there you'll find useful.

Frankly, whenever I get a new firearm --- modern or old reproduction --- I break it down and shoot the parts with brake cleaner or gun degreaser. Often, I find metal filings, sawdust and the leavings of manufacturing in the works. Then, I oil lightly and reassemble. Makes a difference.
I would NOT break down any firearm beyond basic field stripping. An exception is the cap and ball revolver. The Colt and Remington designs are rather simple, if you have directions to guide you.
When I get a new cap and ball revolver, I disassemble it down to the last screw. Again, this is with Colt and Remington models, other models may be more complicated.

I degrease the parts and look them over for tiny burrs. A few light passes with a needle file set usually takes care of any burrs.
However, never touch the mating surfaces of:
A. The hammer and trigger.
B. The hand (it comes up through the frame) and rear of cylinder.
C. The bolt (comes up from below and locks the cylinder).
These areas are best left to a gunsmith, for smoothing.
And if you are at all uncomfortable removing the burrs, don't do it. Let a gunsmith do that for you.

After thoroughly degreasing and blowing crud off your new revolver, oil it lightly with olive oil or heat the metal parts at a very low temperature in the oven (door open) and coat with Crisco. This will not only protect the metal, but season it a bit.

Reassemble the revolver. Put a tiny dab of Crisco, Bore Butter or beeswax on the threads of the nipples. Makes them easier to remove later, when the cylinder is heavily fouled.
Coat the bore liberally with olive oil. The chambers need only a very light pass with olive oil to keep them from rusting.

I recently tried Hodgdon 777 in FFFG grade in my Uberti-made Remington .44 caliber. It's hot stuff! Maximum load is 35 grains, by volume.
I didn't find it any easier to clean than black powder. Don't know if it's less corrosive, as I live in the Utah desert and humidity is typically low here (but not lately ... sheesh .. lots of rain).
When using the 777 I loaded 40 grains by volume, in the Remington. WOW! The blast and recoil were much stronger than an identical amount using FFFG black powder!
Then I found that 35 grains was the MAXIMUM!
Be careful with 777 --- it cannot be used measure for measure with black powder! It's strong stuff.

I would not shoot any propellant without a good lubricant for the ball or projectile. You're just inviting leading and hardened fouling.
In Salt Lake City I usually buy Goex black powder at gun shows for $10 to $12 a pound. The same pound of Hodgdon 777 sells for $20. As long as the price remains high, I don't see the advantage of it.
I don't need the extra velocity (and attendant higher pressures which accelerate wear on the gun) for punching holes in paper and tin cans.
In my limited experience with 777 in FFFG grade, I didn't find it any more accurate than black powder. In fact, I've yet to find anything as accurate as black powder, preferably FFFG grade.
As long as you can find black powder at a price cheaper than 777, I'd stick with it. Both propellants are corrosive, from what I've read on the web, so I don't see much advantage --- other than higher velocity that may have some small justification for hunting or long-range shooting.

 

[huck]

Thanks all, for the replies...very helpful.

Gatofeo - I'd already found, and printed, your list of tips, when I was researching the gun (I just got it yesterday). Regarding the 777, my only reason to use it is to ease cleaning, and maybe reduce corrosion. As all have suggested - the max. load is the max. load (pressure and velocity wise), and it sounds like you need to reduce loads with 777 by 10-15% - saves powder...but that's not a real savings compared with BP, as you pointed out. I guess I'm just looking for the minimalist approach. Not certain I'd go that way...but I'd like to see how it's worked for others, and how minimal one dares go. But it's not worth making a mess of a nice gun, ruining performance, or, in the end, increasing the cleanup labor - which is what I'm trying to reduce, if anything.

What's the reason for using all natural (non-petroleum, etc.) cleaners, lubes, etc. on BP guns? Is it a time-honored kind of thing, or is there some real reason, such as a) worsens the fouling to use modern agents, b) doesn't protect as well, or c) the two don't mix. I've always cleaned my GPR with soap and water, and used TC's Bore Butter-lubed patches, but when I'm done with cleaning, I dry it and preserve it with regular gun oil. It works well on every other gun, and I like the fact that I can get a light coating that will still work well as preservative, but clean out easy...and I've always been uncomfortable with the possibility of leaving excessive bore butter in the bottom of my barrel that I couldn't get cleaned out - the breech plug doesn't seem to come out easily - maybe not intended to - I've never been able to get it out...with as much force as I've been willing to risk. With an inline it wouldn't be an issue...but I've never liked the idea with my side-lock. Is that a :nono: ?

 

[crockett]

Huck:
This applies more to the replica Colt Revolvers than the Remingtons but there were some inexpensive Colts that did not have the pins in the cylinder. Some only had one pin or no pins at all. It is conceivable that with this arrangement a cylinder could rotate a bit and the hammer could come down on a cap. This may have accounted for some of the recommendations to only load five chambers. I think most of this five chamber business is a carry over from the Colt Peacemaker. Everyone knows you don't want to load six into a Peacemaker so I think a lot of folks carried this approach over to the percussion revolvers. I think there is proof to my argument. As a general rule, those advocating a five loaded percussion cylinder argue that the hammer could catch on a twig while walking through brush and that could cock and fire the weapon. Wouldn't the same thing happen with a Peacemaker, with the hammer on an empty chamber, the next chamber is loaded?
I would think plain, cheap, rubbing alcohol would clean up a gun prior to shooting. Good luck.

 

[cavscout]

I was reading your post about taking apart your C&B. i have an 1851 navy from CVA. where can i find the directions to take it all the way down

 

[huck]

Cav Scout,

I don't know the answer to that...for your gun OR mine. Gatofeo might. Or certainly someone on here must.

 

[crockett]

Taking apart a 1851 Navy shouldn't pose too much trouble.Remove the wedge to take off the barrel. Pull off the cylinder. There is a screw for the loading lever. Now for the fun stuff. There are three sccrews holding on the grip. Take off the grip and brass back strap. The mainspring is under a lot of pressure. If you back out the screws in the bottom of the trigger guard about half way you'll take a lot of pressure off the mainspring and you can probably swing the mainspring aside. Then remove the big screw at the bottom of the mainspring. Now remove the trigger guard. You can now remove the leaf spring that works on the trigger (bottom on frame) Now remove the screws in the side of the frame, for the trigger, hammer, bolt. Use a toothbrush to give everything a good cleaning and put it all back together. Before you know it you will be doing this without even thinking of what you are doing. For the first few times you may feel best if you write down which screws go where. There are really only a couple of different screws, most holes use the same size/thread so you can't go too wrong.
I have a Navy replica that's 35 years old and still going strong. No rust at all. Take care of your guns and they'll take care of you.
Lot's of folks forget that the Navy really has the same mechanism as the Colt Peacemaker. Any book about improving the timing on the Peacemaker can PRETTY MUCH be used on the Navy.
Sorry about the Remington. I'm a pure Navy 36 fan.

 

[cavscout]

thanks for the instructions. i'll have something to do tonight taking my pistol apart.

 

[mec]

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=98&sid=c2f3d00809ba58ce6106164c7e937815

Look at the sticky note on top in ref: disassembly of colt types.

 

One thing you have to watch is the delicacy of certain parts when you go to total disassembly.

That two leaf spring that returns the trigger and lock bolt does not need to be tweeked at all. The lock bolt itself has two delicate legs that, if bent, put the revolver out of time.

If you go so far as to pull the hammer you will find the hand attached to to and sliding in a grove inside the frame. There is s flat spring that pushes the hand into the notches of the cylender attached to the hand at the rear and always under stress when being removed frome the frame. This hand spring is famous for snapping off at its base. Replacing it means repalcing the entire hand and retiming the revolver.

Solution: spray carberator cleaner. do not completely disassemble, just break it down into grip unit, frame unit, barrel unit, remove the grips and spray everything out with carb or brake cleaner. Best BP solivant ever made!

When you lube it back up use something a bit thin by BP standards. The delicacy of these parts is different from the big honking lock parts in a side lock. With the issue of timing and indexing the cylender you need lube but not goo. Nothing needs to be forced to move inside the frame. A sludgy feeling is usually followed by a small snapping sound, followed by a trigger that swings free, cylender that will not rotate, or lock bolt that will not jump into its notch.

If you do take the gun completely down this is the time to hit all sides of every part on an Arkansaw stone. Polish everything but remove as little metal from the lock bolt as possible. Hit the sides of the hammer and the nose of the sear and hammer notch. Run a swiss file into the slots for the trigger and lock bolt. You now have an official "slicked over" pistol. If you polished everything well it will probably feel about as good as an origional production revolver.

:m2c:

 

[cavscout]

i took my navy apart last night. the only problem i had was reassembling it. after looking at it for a little while i got it back together without a problem. just from taking it apart and cleaning all the parts the actions is much smoother, thanks for the info

 

[crockett]

One last word. If you really want to slick up the revolver get a book on Colt Peacemakers about how the timing should work. Everything is tied together so it is best to do a "half" job and see how that works. Don't rush into it. On a lot of the replicas the bolt pops up too soon or the bolt goes into its notch and you still have to appreciably pull back the hammmer before it goes into full cock. These guns aren't that expensive so you can afford to play around with them a bit. Have fun.