Rice barrels

[Walks with fire]

I was looking at Rice barrels and checked on their recommended min. and max. loads and they seem pretty low. Anyone know why they can't be charged up a little heavier?

 

[ohio ramrod]

Rice is a company concerned about liability issues, therefore they keep well within safety limits. Better safe than sued. :idunno:

 

[M. De Land]

Probably made of 12L14 and if so it's a good idea to use low charges.

 

[galamb]

Yes, they are 12L14 as are many of the barrels from the various builders (Oregon, FCI, Colerain, Long Hammock, Getz, Hoyt) - and if there was something wrong with 12L14 do you think they would all use it?

(Don Getz recalled how they charged a barrel with over 200 grains, installed a breech plug in each end of a barrel and touched it off and it "didn't blow up" - I trust his testing over theories of 12L14's unsuitability as a black powder barrel material)

Yes, you can charge them up to 100 or 110 grains "safely", but as noted, Jason doesn't want to get sued because he said "it was ok" and then someone goes and blows themselves up.

I have never seen the need to ever exceed 80 grains in any of my barrels, Rice or otherwise..

One more quote from Don in response to a similar question about the barrel steel -

"We also did a lot of proofing real thin barrels with huge loads, could not get them to blow. Also shot barrels with short started
balls, could not get them to bulge or blow. The only way we could get a bulge in the barrel was to load the barrel with
powder and a patched ball pushed all the way down onto the powder, then short starting a ball on top of all this......
bulged the barrel but did not blow it off. As a result of all of this playing around, I kind of thought to myself that it's
sort of foolish to proof a barrel, at least one of ours which I know how it is breeched. There have been a lot of comments
by people who have never made a barrel, nor did any experimental blow-ups. Unless you know what you're talking about
you are doing a great disservice to the muzzleloading game...............Don"

 

[M. De Land]

Yeah, I've read it all before but there are a two big unavoidable factors barrel makers simply cannot get around.
1. Don Getz was a barrel maker not a metallurgist and steel manufactures agree 12L14 is not suitable for gun barrel steel. Sooooo........... as it turns out Mr. Getz didn't really know what he was talking about either.
2. I have never seen any cold weather barrel proofing conducted with 12L14 which is where it is most vulnerable because of it's very low shock load resistance numbers.
I think, but cannot prove, this is the very reason Douglas quit making muzzle loading barrels of which I have one in .54 cal.
I believe I remember reading about Douglas having some barrel ruptures and I think they were also using 12L14.

 

[Stophel]

Please, let's nip this in the bud.

 

[Vaino]

Ditto.....Fred

 

[M. De Land]

I would recommend going with Green Mountain barrels as their steel alloy is 1134 which is a manufacture recommended barrel steel alloy.
Most .22 RF barrels are made of either 1114 or 1117 and will tolerate pressures in the 30K range without any trouble. The only difference in the three alloys is the percent of carbon added for harness. The last two digits denote the percent in hundreds of carbon content.
This alloy has nearly as good of shock load numbers as does 4140, probably the bench mark alloy for all high pressure barrel steel.

 

[Khufu]

you apear yo know more about steel and its alloys than I will ever know. I own 2 green mountain barrels, they are fine barrels, but I will likely never own another. as a shooter and a builder I do not want a barrel their way. in 13/16" they offer .45 cal ... I have a 45, how about a 36? nope, they don't show them on their web site. I would choose a Rice because if I want a 1 1/8" .32 cal with a 1 in 80 twist they will build it! they have an excellent safety record, despite using steel that is an alloy less suitable. but I get the barrel I want, not the ever decreasing selection Green Mountain offers.

 

[ohio ramrod]

While I don't have documentation, if my memory is correct, the Douglas barrel that blew up was loaded, then had powder and sort started ball.On top of the original load .Which probably would have blown up any barrel steel! :hmm: :idunno:

 

[Walks with fire]

Thank You M.D. I do have several GM barrels and like them very much. The ones I have are very good barrels and produce very low standard deviations and high velocity. I don't overcharge them though and stick to their recommendations. I looked at Rice because I was looking for a .45 barrel that would handle 100 grain charges and a twist rate of at least 1/70. I don't want a .016 groove depth either.

I am considering a long barrel GM .40 caliber and getting it turned to .45 caliber. Still looking around yet.

Thanks again.

 

[Boomerang]

I'm a machinist and we use a lot of 41L40. It is a tough material that is easy to machine because of the lead in it. I think it would be a good material to make barrels out of.

 

[Flintfan69]

I believe I remember reading about Douglas having some barrel ruptures and I think they were also using 12L14.

Douglas was also having their barrel material extruded octagon, which is far more likely the cause of the failures. I have seen burst Douglas barrels, and everyone failed due to a perfectly straight, clean crack running from the breech forward. A failure like this is most likely caused by impurities/flaws introduced during the extrusion process.

If you don't believe that, then just ask yourself why the Douglas barrels had such a high failure rate compared to the same 12L14 barrels made by all the other manufactures. It's wasn't the material, it was how it was made.

And saying Don Getz doesn't know anything about barrel materials is like saying Julia Child doesn't know anything about cooking just because she was almost entirely self taught.

 

[Vaino]

Voicing your OPINION asre bbl makers is your right...I do that too, but I don't go further because I'm not a metallurgist....are you?

Rice along w/ many other bbl makers use 12L14 and I haven't heard of their bbls bursting...have you, and if you have, did you get the entire story?

Not everyone who shoots BP has common sense or any sense at all as far as that goes and some even use smokeless powder in a bbl meant for the lower pressures of BP due to their ignorance. A burst bbl can be caused by many different reasons and most are unknown because many times the dope who did it, isn't talking.

Until you present facts and only facts as to the blowups of bbls made from 12L14 steel, there's no validity in your words. C'mon.....let's hear the facts in lieu of suppositions.....Fred

 

[Stophel]

After, what, 40+ years of barrels made of 12L14, the firing line at Friendship should be littered with fragmented guns and dead bodies...

 

[Stophel]

Back to the original subject... Why would you need a 100 grain charge for a .45 caliber rifle?

I have a Rice .45 barrel that, if I ever get back to feeling good, I'm going to use to make my personal rifle. I'll probably keep my charges to around half that, though!

 

[M. De Land]

All I said was he was not a metallurgist nor a steel manufacture so really did not no the strength property parameters of the alloy he was using.
Simple blow up test tell one virtually nothing about alloy structural change from stress, elongation of distortion.
Without this information simple blow up test are not very meaningful because it might come apart the next time with no indication of trouble the first go round.
Cold weather blow up test would be far more meaningful as this is where this alloy is most vulnerable with it's very low shock load numbers.
All I know is what I read from people who do know what they are talking about and they pretty much all agree 12L14 should not be used for barrel steel.
Kind of like smoking for twenty years and all the science says it is bad for you and not getting lung disease............. yet!
Why use barrels with inferior steel alloy strength when better can be had for the same approximate price?

 

[Dean2]

All I said was he was not a metallurgist nor a steel manufacture so really did not no the strength property parameters of the alloy he was using.
Simple blow up test tell one virtually nothing about alloy structural change from stress, elongation of distortion.
Without this information simple blow up test are not very meaningful because it might come apart the next time with no indication of trouble the first go round.
Cold weather blow up test would be far more meaningful as this is where this alloy is most vulnerable with it's very low shock load numbers.
All I know is what I read from people who do know what they are talking about and they pretty much all agree 12L14 should not be used for barrel steel.
Kind of like smoking for twenty years and all the science says it is bad for you and not getting lung disease............. yet!
Why use barrels with inferior steel alloy strength when better can be had for the same approximate price?

I agree and like you I get flamed every time I say it.Even though the commonly used 12L14 steel works okay with black powder loads, the fact there is steel easily 4 times better for the job (4140 used in almost all CF rifles), costs very little more to use and machines and works as well, and yet is ignored tells me we have a large number of makers who figure the old technology is good enough.

Personally, I have always believed that if you can get a much better product for nearly the same price, that is a far better deal and what I want to have. There is NO downside to using better steel. That is why I buy barrels made of 4140.

 

[Vaino]

Seeing you're not a bbl maker, why would your opinions matter? I think a lot of the "opinions" on whether 12L14 steel is safe w/ BP loads is a lot of blather seeing most BP bbls in use today are made of 12L14 steel and you even admitted that it's safe w/ Bp. There's no epidemic of bbl "blow ups" that are made of 12L14 steel and in fact I've asked for verified facts concerning the "blow up" of 12L14 bbls and none are forthcoming.... so, why is this even being discussed...simply foolishness....Fred

 

[kaintuck]

I like the idea to use a accurate load in my BP rifle. then when a magnum is needed, a centerfire will be used. :haha:

BTW, my 50cal shoots one hole groups with 65gr, and opens up when a max of 120gr is shot....plus my shoulder knows a 120gr load.......... :surrender:

semantics and what ifs.......tomtom said this!