Rogers rangers musket photos please?

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
I don't think the OP cares about the historical correctness of "Roger's Rangers" carbines. He just wanted a short gun and one marketed as a "Ranger" carbine caught his eye. So posts about the history of RR and what they carried probably don't apply. Florida airgunner, if you think a short barreled gun is what you need. Go for it. Unfortunately, the India-made guns are all over the map with respect to quality. There are quite a few Northwest trade guns that could fit the bill and the best are made by some contemporary makers. A few have been advertised on this forum.

dave

 

[Florida airgunner]

Hi Guys,
I don't think the OP cares about the historical correctness of "Roger's Rangers" carbines. He just wanted a short gun and one marketed as a "Ranger" carbine caught his eye. So posts about the history of RR and what they carried probably don't apply. Florida airgunner, if you think a short barreled gun is what you need. Go for it. Unfortunately, the India-made guns are all over the map with respect to quality. There are quite a few Northwest trade guns that could fit the bill and the best are made by some contemporary makers. A few have been advertised on this forum.

dave

Thanks

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Florida airgunner ,

Shorter barrels are certainly handier. However, I would suggest that you look at the length of pull (LOP). I am also about five foot six, and a 13-1/2" LOP feels good. We have an original Bess in the family, in relic condition and converted to percussion, but the stock is intact. The LOP of this original is slightly over 13". I don't know about the India made muskets, but I believe the Pedersoli Besses have a LOP of about 14-1/2". There is no way I could shoot one of those comfortably. If the stock does not fit you reasonably well, it will be harder to shoot the gun, regardless of its barrel length.

In addition, the Bess is about 11 gauge. That's a big bore. You can adjust a shot load to a comfortable level, but if you plan to shoot balls, you'll be throwing a lot of lead downrange with every shot, and it's really more than you need for anything in Florida, except maybe skunk apes, and I don't think they are legal to shoot.

You get what you want, and have fun with it! However, if you want suggestions, I would recommend that you consider a fowling piece or trade gun in 20 to 24 gauge (roughly .62 to .58 caliber), and made to fit your stature. This will cost you more than the India-made gun, but I think you will find it to be money well spent.

Good luck to you! Let us know what you decide on getting.

Notchy Bob

 

[FlinterNick]

Historically the rangers used a shortland brown bess.

During the French and Indian War the rangers used a combination of personal arms and military arms, if they could not afford their own or procure their own, they were given a brown bess with ordnance stamps and the musket was registered, therefore they had to return it as it was the kings property. They were not permitted to cut the barrels without pre-approval and thus consequences for doing so.

There was some evidence found near ranger island that some muskets had been shortened, four to six inch cut offs in .68 - .77 caliber were found however these physical specimens long lands or french muskets were never found. Shortening a musket in the field without the assistance of an armor is not a simple task, as everything else needs to be moved also and cut, rammers, lugs, bands etc. My opinion is that some captured french muskets and possible Dutch or British guns were redressed due to a worn down muzzle, at most these woudl have been cut from a 46 to a 40-42 inch barrel.

There is no evidence a specific ranger carbine ever existed, this somewhat of a fantasy gun that has made its name in popularity with reenactment groups.

The most appropriate muskets rangers used were the following, french 1717, 1728’s and marine muskets, tulle fusils, long land and short land brown Bess’s, trade guns, long lands and short lands and possibly some types of officers fusils (highly unlikely).

If you want a short smoothbore, my personal preference would be a light fowler / trade gun or if you want a brown bess style musket, a third model bess.

Larry Zornes offer’s a ranger musket kit in .54-69 caliber, this is a nice kit. The musket is very similar to a British Sergeants Carbine.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I don't know anything about the Rogers Rangers muskets, whether or how they might have been shortened.

However, I do know that native people frequently shortened smooth bored muskets in the field. Samuel Hearne mentioned this in the 1770's, indicating this was a way to salvage a gun with a burst barrel. I believe Isaac Cowie, writing 80-90 years later, reporting that some of the plains Indians would shorten their trade guns out of preference. There are plenty of existing examples of shortened military and trade muskets with native provenance. I have an original Springfield rifle musket, with 1864 on the lock, that was bobbed, evidently by a native owner.

How did they do it? They used three-cornered files for cutting the barrels, by filing a groove around the tube, cutting deeper and deeper until it finally cut through. This typically left a beveled muzzle which was seldom faced off square.

As for the wood forend, I can't say for sure how they did it, but I believe John Ewers provided an illustration in one of his publications that showed a common table knife which had been made into a little saw by filing teeth with one of those same three-cornered files. A tool like that would have been adequate for cutting off the wooden forend of a musket.

My Springfield has a beveled muzzle with old file marks remaining. The forend was cut off square, as with a saw, although there is a long splinter missing along one edge. This suggests it may have been a salvage job to save a gun with a dented, bent, or burst barrel and shattered forend rather than a preferential cut-off.

I am sure a ranger in the field could have used similar techniques, if he had found it necessary to shorten his gun.

Notchy Bob

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I am sure a ranger in the field could have used similar techniques, if he had found it necessary to shorten his gun.

Kings property. You go to prison for shortening the Kings musket.

 

[Red Owl]

I always just assumed they used the standard Brown Bess. I doubt they would be using the enemy's (French) muskets, etc. and I never heard of them being a militia type unit using their own arms.

 

[FlinterNick]

Kings property. You go to prison for shortening the Kings musket.

Correct, especially under Simco, the queens rangers were more or less an auxiliary and dragoon unit.

 

[FlinterNick]

I always just assumed they used the standard Brown Bess. I doubt they would be using the enemy's (French) muskets, etc. and I never heard of them being a militia type unit using their own arms.

There are a few surviving muskets marked queens rangers and kings rangers, both are short land brown bess muskets.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't know anything about the Rogers Rangers muskets, whether or how they might have been shortened.

However, I do know that native people frequently shortened smooth bored muskets in the field. Samuel Hearne mentioned this in the 1770's, indicating this was a way to salvage a gun with a burst barrel. I believe Isaac Cowie, writing 80-90 years later, reporting that some of the plains Indians would shorten their trade guns out of preference. There are plenty of existing examples of shortened military and trade muskets with native provenance. I have an original Springfield rifle musket, with 1864 on the lock, that was bobbed, evidently by a native owner.

How did they do it? They used three-cornered files for cutting the barrels, by filing a groove around the tube, cutting deeper and deeper until it finally cut through. This typically left a beveled muzzle which was seldom faced off square.

As for the wood forend, I can't say for sure how they did it, but I believe John Ewers provided an illustration in one of his publications that showed a common table knife which had been made into a little saw by filing teeth with one of those same three-cornered files. A tool like that would have been adequate for cutting off the wooden forend of a musket.

My Springfield has a beveled muzzle with old file marks remaining. The forend was cut off square, as with a saw, although there is a long splinter missing along one edge. This suggests it may have been a salvage job to save a gun with a dented, bent, or burst barrel and shattered forend rather than a preferential cut-off.

I am sure a ranger in the field could have used similar techniques, if he had found it necessary to shorten his gun.

Notchy Bob

Rangers in the field that were issued brown bess muskets from an ordnance store with markings would have had the musket registered, and woudl have been required to return it in the condition it was originally documented. If a long land was issued then a long land had to be returned unless it was approved to be shortened by the controlling colonel.

Personally i don’t think rangers were issued many long lands because of this, i think they were issued shortlands during the revolutionary war. From my readings of Simco, he wanted his rangers to be trained as light infantry, which used short land Bess’s, light infantry fusils, some 1776 rifles and dragoon carbines. There is no indication that he preferred his men to use older long lands that were cut down from 46” to a shorter length.

Rogers Rangers in the F&I war and early Rev War were using a lot of personal arms, trade muskets, captured french arms were preferred to that of British and Dutch muskets.

 

[FlinterNick]

Queens rangers musket marked 110 of 116, a short land bess issued in 1776.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com...gers_marked_second_model_brown-lot465455.aspx

 

[FlinterNick]

Queens rangers musket marked 110 of 116, a short land bess issued in 1776.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com...gers_marked_second_model_brown-lot465455.aspx

Another shortland Bess marked queens rangers.

https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2652M/lots/233

 

[Randy Short]

At the same time, any Brown Bess is cool, And would be fun….We live in the Rangers stomping grounds, and I always thought it would be great fun to join a RR reenactment group.
Get the gun you want….and have fun!

Then you should join us!

http://www.jaegersbattalion.org/
Jaeger's Battalion is the oldest, and the largest, recreated Rogers' Rangers unit in the country. We have companies all over the US. One of the absolute best events is the July 4th weekend event at Old Fort Niagara!

 

[Conquerordie]

It also depends on what time period, early war or later. When the companies were raised, most came with the gun they owned. A few might have showed up without a gun, but the men that came to these companies were mostly used to being in the woods, and would have been armed.

 

[beyu]

Kings property. You go to prison for shortening the Kings musket.

That might be true. But IF I were a Ranger with Rogers in those days — and I thought a shortened musket was better suited to my needs and therefore more able to help to keep me alive ... I'd do it and worry about any consequences later.

"What? Is it shorter? I didn't notice it, sir. It came that way as far as I know..."

 

[fireman1]

That might be true. But IF I were a Ranger with Rogers in those days — and I thought a shortened musket was better suited to my needs and therefore more able to help to keep me alive ... I'd do it and worry about any consequences later.

"What? Is it shorter? I didn't notice it, sir. It came that way as far as I know..."

No, no, no.

Sir! Damaged killing Frenchies SIR!!! Is the correct reply.

 

[2 shots]

"What? Is it shorter? I didn't notice it, sir. It came that way as far as I know..."

must have gotten wet. sir.

 

[sturmkatze]

That might be true. But IF I were a Ranger with Rogers in those days — and I thought a shortened musket was better suited to my needs and therefore more able to help to keep me alive ... I'd do it and worry about any consequences later.

"What? Is it shorter? I didn't notice it, sir. It came that way as far as I know..."

lol lol lol. I am guessing that you were never in the military. I always love hearing these guys say things like “Well, if a drill sergeant got in my face, I’d give him what for.” What you’d do is stand there scared fecesless and try not to gain his attention. The very few know-it-alls were fun to watch get broken.

As to destroying the King’s property, a taste of the lash would alter your faulty thinking. You don’t own that weapon, the King does.

 

[florkinliege]

"
Scott Lance:

OK folks, here's the deal: The cutoff barrel ends found at Rogers' Island in the '60's by Earl Stott (the former owner of the island) are now in the collections of Ft. Ticonderoga.
There are exactly 2 pieces approximately 4" long presumed to be from British Land Pattern muskets. There is no archeological collection data so they could be from the F & I or Revolution
as the Island was occupied during both Wars. Chris Fox's opinion is that without solid collection data, they are similar to the other barrel ends collected throughout the Hudson Valley,
meaning that it is conjecture to assume that these 2 cutoffs are the only artifacts of hundreds of barrels being shortened.

Chris also did confirm that in 1759 a bill was paid to Cox and Co., agents, to shorten the arms of the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment in lieu of issuing them the carbines that the other
Highland Regiments (77th & 78th) received. The 42nd was at Regimental strength of approximately 1000 men, so that would be a lot of cutoffs. How much were they shortened, I'm not sure?

As to Ranger arms being short: There are numerous newspaper adds offering for sale short carbines and fuzees "suitable for Light Troops" in the New York papers.
These would be private purchase arms, not Government property. There are also a couple of accounts of Rogers' men petitioning the Government for lost private purchase arms.
There just isn't enough physical evidence to support the "Bess Carbine" type guns used by a bunch of the Ranger types."

 

[florkinliege]

From "The Annotated and Illustrated Journals of Major Robert Rogers" Todish/Zaboly


Account of effects of Thomas Chase died 13 175- at Halefax
One New French gun marked TC
One Coton and Linen shirt
One frock, asinbrgs
One pare of asinbrgs Trousers
One powder horn one boolet pouch
One pare of yarn Stockins
One Betel (bottle)
Fifteen Spanish mild (milled) dolers
One gray Jacket two pare of Stockins
Two pare of Britchis
One Striped Jacket one shirt
An old hat and Cap

Isaac Griffin died on his pashis (passage) from
Halifax and Left the Things following:
One Coat
One Striped (?)
One pare of Britches
One Cotin and Linin Shirt
Two pare of yarn Stockins
One old felt hat
One gun marked IG 1757
One powder horn and Bolet pouch
Forty one Spenesh mild dolors

Sgt. Job Lieby
One gun
One Coat
One blew Jeaket
One Red pare of britches
One pare of Sleve Butens Silver
Three pare of Stockins
One flask One Pare of Lather Britchis
One Tow Shirt one hat
One pare of shoes
One Chist (Chest)
Died at hallefix August the 13th, 1757.
(The Journal of Moses Kelsey, The Granite State Magazine, II.)