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Round Ball Twist Rate for Pistol

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Is a faster twist rate better for a .45 cal 9 inch CVA Pioneer pistol? The other pistols I have are slower twist. The .32 cal CVA Crocket pistol has very little twist. For a short pistol barrel should a faster twist rate spin the ball more and have better stability?
The last time I shot the CVA pioneer .45 I used a .440 ball and .018 denium patch with 20 gr of Goex. It was on paper but I could not get it to group at 20 yards. The next time I shoot it I will try a .451 ball, .012 ticking patch with 20 gr of Goex.
Anyone have experience with this?
 
FWIW, My Le Page 44 target pistols have a 1:18 twist. I'm using 20gr FFFg in the flintlock and 18 gr in the caplock. .433 ball and .010" patch. Both group right around an inch at 25 yds, benched.
 
FWIW, the Ruger old Army has a 1:16" twist and seems to do excelent with RB or Conical. I don,t believe the fact that its a revolver instesd of a single shot makes a big difference .
:thumbsup:
 
Speed out the barrel and twist create stability in flight to the target. A fast twist will stabilize with less speed, ie less powder charge. Now all this usually becomes relevent only out at such range that projectiles start to destabilize. Round balls seem to be rather stable unless they start spinning sideways. Even a smooth bore can shoot incredible groups at 25 yds.

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that twist only becomes important at about 50 yards and further. A round ball in a 1:18 will be stabilized at very slow speeds. If the twist if closer to rifle twist, the ball will need to move faster through the bore to remain stable. I have a pistol with a 1:66 twist from a cut off from a long rifle barrel. It shoots great with 15 grains at 25 yds, but at 50 the group opens up to cover the entire sheet of paper. Throw 40 grains in there and suddenly the group contracts to in the black. I've tried going higher with charges but it makes no difference.

If I were going to design a target pistol, it would be with about a 1:20 twist.

Probably, the slower the twist, the more speed needed at ranges beyond 25 yds.
 
One has to bear in mind that most of the original pistols were designed for ranges well under 50 yards and the reproductions are, for the most part, far superior to them. And, by the way, I believe that I read somewhere that rifled pistols were not permitted in formal duels. Anyone heard that? For my part, 20-30 grains of fffg in my .50 caliber percussion pistols seems to work for me.
 
Yes I have heard that, some tried to cheat by having their barrel just rifled in the breach 1/2 of the gun making them apear smooth from the muzzle
 
Most if my pistol shooting is at 25 yards or less. The .45 cal Pioneer pistol has a 1 in 16 twist. I need to work up a powder patch and ball combination. I am more accurate with the .32 Crocket pistol but it is a little light for metal targets on a woodswalk.
Thanks for the information.
 
In the book "Pistols of the World" * by Claude Blair (THE VIKING PRESS, NEW YORK), the author, speaking of "Duelling-pistols" says:

"...Joe Manton is also credited with the invention of the highly unethical 'secret rifling' or 'scratch rifling', grooves made so fine as to be invisible at the muzzle..." (pg 19).

This reinforces the idea that dueling pistols were smoothbore, at least in England and on the Continent.

I have read that is was not unusual for rifled pistols to be used for dueling in the USA.

*I found this hardbound 9" X 12" book at a very cheap price at a used book store and it is an invaluable reference containing not only hundreds of photos of pistols ranging from wheel-locks thru cartridge guns but exploded drawings of many of the old locks.
Keep your eye out for it.
 
Hi,
All duels in England and probably America were illegal. However, the practice was winked at, and duels were conducted largely within rules accepted by the "civilized" practioners, which were often published by anonymous authors (because dueling was illegal). In some continental European countries, dueling was legal but I am not aware of any official rules of conduct. In England, rifled dueling pistols were frowned upon. However, many of the best makers made them including Wogden, Mortimer, and the Manton brothers. Rifling was not cheating because both pistols in a case were rifled so no one had an advantage. The popularity of rifled dueling pistols grew during the early 19th century because target shooting with pistols became a very popular pastime. The gun makers responded by making rifled pistols that could be used for both dueling and sport. John Manton introduced very fine "scratch" rifling that could barely be seen except in a clean barrel under good light. Joe Manton went further and only rifled the breech half of his barrels so that it could not be seen at the muzzle. Consequently, both makers created guns that were perceived as acceptable on the dueling grounds but satisfied owners' desires for accurate target pistols.

dave
 
The Code Duello, covering the practice of dueling and points of honor, was drawn up and settled at Clonmel Summer Assizes, 1777, by gentlemen-delegates of Tipperary, Galway, Sligo, Mayo and Roscommon, and prescribed for general adoption throughout Ireland. The Code was generally also followed in England and on the Continent with some slight variations. In America, the principal rules were followed, although occasionally there were some glaring deviations.



Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.

Rule 2. But if the parties would rather fight on, then after two shots each (but in no case before), B may explain first, and A apologize afterward.

N.B. The above rules apply to all cases of offenses in retort not of stronger class than the example.

Rule 3. If a doubt exist who gave the first offense, the decision rests with the seconds; if they won't decide, or can't agree, the matter must proceed to two shots, or to a hit, if the challenger require it.

Rule 4. When the lie direct is the first offense, the aggressor must either beg pardon in express terms; exchange two shots previous to apology; or three shots followed up by explanation; or fire on till a severe hit be received by one party or the other.

Rule 5. As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane.

If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.

N.B. A disarm is considered the same as a disable. The disarmer may (strictly) break his adversary's sword; but if it be the challenger who is disarmed, it is considered as ungenerous to do so.

In the case the challenged be disarmed and refuses to ask pardon or atone, he must not be killed, as formerly; but the challenger may lay his own sword on the aggressor's shoulder, then break the aggressor's sword and say, "I spare your life!" The challenged can never revive the quarrel -- the challenger may.

Rule 6. If A gives B the lie, and B retorts by a blow (being the two greatest offenses), no reconciliation can take place till after two discharges each, or a severe hit; after which B may beg A's pardon humbly for the blow and then A may explain simply for the lie; because a blow is never allowable, and the offense of the lie, therefore, merges in it. (See preceding rules.)

N.B. Challenges for undivulged causes may be reconciled on the ground, after one shot. An explanation or the slightest hit should be sufficient in such cases, because no personal offense transpired.

Rule 7. But no apology can be received, in any case, after the parties have actually taken ground, without exchange of fires.

Rule 8. In the above case, no challenger is obliged to divulge his cause of challenge (if private) unless required by the challenged so to do before their meeting.

Rule 9. All imputations of cheating at play, races, etc., to be considered equivalent to a blow; but may be reconciled after one shot, on admitting their falsehood and begging pardon publicly.

Rule 10. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman's care or protection to be considered as, by one degree, a greater offense than if given to the gentleman personally, and to be regulated accordingly.

Rule 11. Offenses originating or accruing from the support of ladies' reputations, to be considered as less unjustifiable than any others of the same class, and as admitting of slighter apologies by the aggressor: this to be determined by the circumstances of the case, but always favorable to the lady.

Rule 12. In simple, unpremeditated recontres with the smallsword, or couteau de chasse, the rule is -- first draw, first sheath, unless blood is drawn; then both sheath, and proceed to investigation.

Rule 13. No dumb shooting or firing in the air is admissible in any case. The challenger ought not to have challenged without receiving offense; and the challenged ought, if he gave offense, to have made an apology before he came on the ground; therefore, children's play must be dishonorable on one side or the other, and is accordingly prohibited.

Rule 14. Seconds to be of equal rank in society with the principals they attend, inasmuch as a second may either choose or chance to become a principal, and equality is indispensible.

Rule 15. Challenges are never to be delivered at night, unless the party to be challenged intend leaving the place of offense before morning; for it is desirable to avoid all hot-headed proceedings.

Rule 16. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapon, unless the challenger gives his honor he is no swordsman; after which, however, he can decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.

Rule 17. The challenged chooses his ground; the challenger chooses his distance; the seconds fix the time and terms of firing.

Rule 18. The seconds load in presence of each other, unless they give their mutual honors they have charged smooth and single, which should be held sufficient.

Rule 19. Firing may be regulated -- first by signal; secondly, by word of command; or thirdly, at pleasure -- as may be agreeable to the parties. In the latter case, the parties may fire at their reasonable leisure, but second presents and rests are strictly prohibited.

Rule 20. In all cases a miss-fire is equivalent to a shot, and a snap or non-cock is to be considered as a miss-fire.

Rule 21. Seconds are bound to attempt a reconciliation before the meeting takes place, or after sufficient firing or hits, as specified.

Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.

Rule 23. If the cause of the meeting be of such a nature that no apology or explanation can or will be received, the challenged takes his ground, and calls on the challenger to proceed as he chooses; in such cases, firing at pleasure is the usual practice, but may be varied by agreement.

Rule 24. In slight cases, the second hands his principal but one pistol; but in gross cases, two, holding another case ready charged in reserve.

Rule 25. Where seconds disagree, and resolve to exchange shots themselves, it must be at the same time and at right angles with their principals, thus:

If with swords, side by side, with five paces interval.

N.B. All matters and doubts not herein mentioned will be explained and cleared up by application to the committee, who meet alternately at Clonmel and Galway, at the quarter sessions, for that purpose.
 
Hi Bill,
Yeah, I am aware of the 'Irish Rules". Hamilton in his 1826 publication describe them as obsolete rules. None of it was legal or sanctioned by any legal system except that for a time, the legal systems in England and Ireland winked at the practice and did not prosecute unless there was a gross violation of the "rules". I do not believe that the Irish "code duello" ever was the rule of the land. What documentation do you have that it mattered on the continent?

dave
 
Sorry, pulled an "oops".
The entire post came from " Noted American duels and hostile encounters" by Hamilton Cochran.

My intention was to copy rule 18 from the code about loading "smooth and single" in response to papabang and not to post the whole thing.

That's the great thing about computers, they let you screw up faster and better than ever.
 
I think the twist rate is 1 in 48 so it sounds like they used the same barrels as the rifle and had them cut into shorter lengths. I don't know the theory behind the reason but I have been told that pistols need a faster rate of twist.
On a larger caliber, say a 50 caliber, a slower rate of twist is somewhat better for a PRB, let's say 1 in 66. As the caliber decreases in size the twist drops. I am not sure of the comparision but by the time you drop down to 32 caliber a 1 in 48 twist may be about equal to a 1 in 66 twist in a 54 caliber. The point of all this is that the 1 in 48 twist in the pistol might not be best, a faster rate may be better.
Slowing the velocity may help, so a lesser powder charge ought to be tried. Wads over the powder and under the PRB might help.
I am only stating the theories I have been told which hopefully will prompt some folks with better knowledge to add to the thread.
 
FWIW The best accuracy that I have seen out of my pistols was from a Rayl rifle barrel drop that was originally a 42" 36 cal. I put 32" into a Seneca barrel and the remainder into a Patriot Pistol. That barrel at 1-48" will shoot circles around the original 45 cal barrel :idunno:
 
May 30th, 1806,Andrew Jackson had a Duel with Charles Dickinson, some remark was made about Jacksons Wife, both men were shot, jackson was shot above the heart, and survived, Dickinson was not so lucky, he died. 23 yrs later Andy Jackson was elected President.
 
It don't take much spin to stabilize a round ball I have found. I made a .54 caliber horse pistol that I showed some pictures of on another post,that uses a 10 inch piece of , 1 in 60 twist rifle barrel and shoots round patched balls to 50 yards with very good accuracy. Actually I thought it would shoot all over the place when I made it from a bunch of spare parts but I was very wrong about that.
Kind of changed my opinion on how fast a round ball needs to spin to be accurate. It likes 50grains of 2F Goex, a .530 round ball and .018 felt patch to do it's thing. MD
 
50 grains is a lot more than most folks shoot from a pistol. It is enough under the old rules of target shooting to provide stability out of a rifle with rifle twist.

Target pistols, are a different animal. To lob a ball as accurately as possible with mild loads. Ten or 20 grains being the norm. For those light loads, a faster twist is advisable.

On the other hand, for a pistol for hunting deer or medium size game where more oomph is required, the amount of powder is increased as is the velocity. For such pistols a "rifle twist" will work as well or better.
 
Here is the .54 Horse pistol I was referring to.
P1010780.jpg

P1010778.jpg

P1010781.jpg

P1000735.jpg
 
This is the gun with the 5/16's steel rod bedded in the grip clear up to the tang area so the stock won't split under the heavy recoil.
P1010775.jpg

Never did get around to staining the dowel plug walnut color.MD
 
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