Round ball verses conical

[Tanker]

I am just getting back into muzzleloader hunting after a long break so I forgot what little I knew. So here is the first of many questions that I am sure I will have. My local black powder shop told me that I need to shoot round ball out of my guns. (TC penn carbine Flintlock, 45 cal Stalker, and 58 cal kodiak double rifle) What I don't understand is I have seen in a lot of different posts that people are having good luck with conical with my same kind of weapon. Can someone clear this up for me? I would like try conical rounds but have no idea if it is safe and if it is loaded the same.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The general rule is that guns with slow rifling twists like round balls over conicals......But many of us prefer to shoot roundballs for traditional and economical reasons......Also many competitions are roundball only...

Many conical shooters use modern ones that we don't discuss.....( see forum rule #9 )

Your gun will tell you what it likes to shoot if you decide to shoot a conical, but in many cases it boils down to personal preference.

Conical vs. roundball is a lot like Coke vs. Pepsi

P.S. It's also a good idea to consult your owners manual.

 

[Tanker]

Makes good sense to me. I will probably stick to round balls. I have good groupings and I am more comfortable shooting them. Just didn't really understand why they said not to. Understand completely about rule 9 and if I implied anything modern it was not intentional.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My local black powder shop told me that I need to shoot round ball out of my guns.

Wow! Usually gun shops are staffed by folks who have no idea about traditional muzzleloading and they think conicals are the answer. You have a great shop there. :thumbsup:

As Clyde said - certain rifles have a slow twist that will not stabilize a conical well. If yours are 1:60" to 1:72" you're better off with a round ball. 1:48" is a compromise twist in the larger bores and will do either.

But I thought the Kodiak has a very fast twist? Is that the Pedersoli? I looked up a few and they have 1:24" OR 1:48" (older versions). You might be stuck using a conical for any range if it is the 1:24" version.

Conicals give you advantages in range. But if your shots are under 100 yards they aren't at all necessary.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Unfortunately, it's confusing too....for example the rule-of-thumb that a 1:72 twist rate won't stabilize a conical at all or well....there are excellent shooting Enfield rifles that are 1:74, and they shoot minnieballs.

The other side of the coin is folks say sometimes that 1:48 is a compromise twist rate to shoot both conical and round ball, not knowing that 1:48 was very popular in rifles before conicals appeared on the scene.

Then there are those who say a faster twist than 1:48 is only for conicals, while Pedersoli sells a Jaeger rifle in 1:24 and recommends patched round ball for that rifle.

As mentioned, though I think you have a good staffer at that gunshop, for I noticed something about your original post. You are in Pennsylvania, so your shop person knows the PA black powder regulations. In PA they have a black powder season where you have to use a patched round ball and a flinter. So the shop person was probably guiding you to what you locally must use, and you might as well learn to shoot that well.

As for me, I prefer the PRB for accuracy AND it kicks a whole lot less. :shocked2: I've gone to the range recently, and "the boys" were tuning up their muzzleloaders that we don't discuss, with 120 - 150 grain loads, and 300 plus grain projectiles...and some of them couldn't really raise their arm to wave goodbye at the end of the day...

LD

 

[Stumpkiller]

The 1:48" was popular with 0.36 and 0.40 calibers. Still is a good choice. Also in large bore Jägers (short barrels). But then fins were common on cars of the 1950's. ;-)

You can definitely get by with a fast twist using round balls if you don't use heavy loads. I have no idea the powder charges used in the large bore original Jägers; but I do know they had a reputation for accuracy.

 

[Walks with fire]

I have a GM 1/28 twist flint barrel that is 24" long. The bore size is .5014, the .005 grooves are wide and the lands narrow. This barrel likes a 90 grain Goex 2f charge with a .490 ball and .017 patch. At 50 yards it's very accurate; not one hole but very close to that. I don't know what it does after 50 yards though. The next target butt is at 100 yards and haven't got to that yet. It didn't like lower charges very much. I expected this barrel to do well with conical projectiles but so far it hasn't. Fast twist will shoot ball; I think the groove depth means a lot so it can spin the ball.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I think the groove depth means a lot so it can spin the ball.

It does......
One of the problems with conicals is that they are longer than a round ball. Longer projectiles require more spin for stabilization, spin is relative to velocity (more velocity=more rpm's). Often, it is not possible to achieve sufficient velocity/stabilization and maintain rifling engagement in guns with shallow rifling, when muzzleloading.

However, there are ways around this problem, Using methods like those used by Idaho Ron....
There are also modern methods but we don't discuss them.

 

[Walks with fire]

Well in this particular barrel it seems to work for some reason. It got better groups at 90 grain than it did at 70 or 80. I didn't go any higher than 90 and even that is a bit much for a 24" barrel. I had hopes for a 70 grain charge being good but it wasn't.

I need to test it at 75 to 80 yards to see how much it opens up. I am hoping that it's not acting like a smoothbore and just stripping the rifling entirely. The cleaning patch spins the rod so I think it's spinning the ball since it's snug but not tight.

 

[coloradoclyde]

It got better groups at 90 grain than it did at 70 or 80

Yep!, more powder = more velocity = more stabilization = better accuracy....But only to a point.

 

[Spikebuck]

I had three .54 Pedersoli's with shallow 1-65 twist barrels that shot Hornady GP 435 Gr Conicals as well as they shot round balls...just with about 6" more drop at 100 yards but excellent groups. BUT, TC Hunters wouldn't shoot worth a darn. My guess was that the hollow base of the GP's was expanding sufficiently to seal the bore and the TC Hunter's solid base was not. A wad behind the TC's may have done the trick.

So net...one conical may work, another not. One slow-twist barrel may shoot them...another not.

Whenever people say "always" or "never" they probably haven't done much personal experimenting or first-hand observation of others to even be knowledgeable enough to make the statement.

If the guns shoot PRB's effectively and you like them, stick with them. If you want to experiment with conicals, give it a go.

Traditionally styles conicals are OK to discuss...not those plastic things, though. :v

 

[coloradoclyde]

Maxi balls, buffalo bullets, Hornady GP's, Cast pistol bullets, wad cutters, jacketed and saboted unmentionables,.. Paper patched, ....Heck I've even made my own conical mold.............

I've even turned the tables and shot maxi balls and round balls out of modern guns....
The good the bad and the ugly.... :haha:

And I still end up preferring the elegant simplicity of a round ball.....Maybe I'm :youcrazy:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use both prb and hollow based mini's for Ohio deer.I have found that the shorter hollow based mini's work better at longer distances ( 100 to 150 yards) but since my eyes aren't what they used to be, I now don't shoot over 75 yards with the muzzle loader and open sights and prb works quite well. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[ohio ramrod]

Since my eyes went south as I got older and scopes and muzzle loaders just don't make sense to me, I am going to work up a load for mini's out of my 45/70 new fangled thing so i can reload it and aford to shoot it! But for most of my shooting I'll stick to the smoke poles! :idunno:

 

[Tanker]

Thanks for the info. I would like to stick with round balls if possible. I plan on hitting the range next week. I should know after that if round balls will work. My 58 cal is a pedersoli and from what the shop told me it is a 1/48 twist. It was a retirement gift 2 weeks ago so I can't wait to shoot it. They are a great shop they primarily only do traditional muzzleloader. You will find a few inline stuff but not much. I bought my TC Pa hunter carbine from them 15-20 yrs ago had no idea what I was doing with black powder. They spent 2+ hours with me picking out a gun and teaching me what to do. Hard to find that kind of service anymore.

 

[Naphtali]

Regarding stability of conicals, nearly all depends upon length of projectile and rate of twist. Greenhill's Formula was based upon an artillery shell traveling at 1600 fps. You may use it for conicals' stability with fairly good reliablity - provided you intend to use "full power" loads. In Muzzleloading Shooting and Winning with the Champions, Don Davis, editor (1973) an interview about slug gun shooting with Walter Grote provides information about approximately muzzle velocities expected from slug guns in terms of ratio of bulletowder by weight. You should expect similar results from you conical.

A significantly more flexible method is provided by the STABILITY CALCULATOR found at Stability calculator loacated via index

I have based all of my conical shooting and made-to-order conicals on JBM calculator plus Walter Grote's interview - with outstanding success.

Hope something here helps you.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Roundballs are also MUCH more forgiving of twist. Mostly because if they start to tumble - you'll never know from looking at the target. ;-)

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yep! for some reason :hmm: roundballs just don't keyhole... :haha:

 

[Shifty]

Where can i read Walter Grotes interview?

 

[Dphar]

I am just getting back into muzzleloader hunting after a long break so I forgot what little I knew. So here is the first of many questions that I am sure I will have. My local black powder shop told me that I need to shoot round ball out of my guns. (TC penn carbine Flintlock, 45 cal Stalker, and 58 cal kodiak double rifle) What I don't understand is I have seen in a lot of different posts that people are having good luck with conical with my same kind of weapon. Can someone clear this up for me? I would like try conical rounds but have no idea if it is safe and if it is loaded the same.

The people at the shop are probably trying to save you some grief.
In the hunting context if a conical is needed in a ML then a larger round ball is the best answer. Conicals loaded to produce a flat trajectory will generally cause nipple erosion problems, hammers blown to 1/2 or full cock and other problems related to pressure levels that few MLs out there are designed to properly contain.
I have shot bulleted MLs that would erode a "plain" nipple in 10-15 rounds. This was with a 520 gr bullet and 70 gr of black, either F or FF Goex. Don't recall for sure but its been awhile. In shooting a cloth patched picket from my 48" twist 40 cal I have found that (so far) the most accurate load is 80 gr of 1.5 Swiss. Lighter loads don't shoot all that well. This is in line with what others have told me. That a RB load for a barrel is 3/5th of the picket load. But I have not shot the test bed rifle in maybe 3-4 years.
The cloth patched picket is the only "conical" I would consider and it still has problems with a complex loading process and high pressures.
Most people are best served with a patched round and ALL hunters are due to the bullet movement in the barrel issue AND the fact that in slow twists like 48" for a 50-54, the bullet will often tend to DEFLECT from its course after striking the animal and this is not a good thing. This has been known of since the Crimean War when the Minie was first used in combat. The RB is actually a damned good hunting projectile so long as its range limitations are observed and its of a suitable weight for the game being hunted. Those who want to know more about the RB as a practical hunting projectile should Google "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" by James Forsythe. The internal ballistics "science" is pure 19th c supposition, but the comments on shooting game are spot on.
People also need to remember that the modern gun writers comments on the RB (and other things) are generally meant, first and foremost, to sell products for advertisers so the RB has been portrayed as old fashioned and inefficient and over all useless. It's a lie or course, from the hunting standpoint....
Dan