Round ball verses conical

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Stumpkiller said:
Tanker said:
My local black powder shop told me that I need to shoot round ball out of my guns.

Wow! Usually gun shops are staffed by folks who have no idea about traditional muzzleloading and they think conicals are the answer. You have a great shop there. :thumbsup:

As Clyde said - certain rifles have a slow twist that will not stabilize a conical well. If yours are 1:60" to 1:72" you're better off with a round ball. 1:48" is a compromise twist in the larger bores and will do either.

But I thought the Kodiak has a very fast twist? Is that the Pedersoli? I looked up a few and they have 1:24" OR 1:48" (older versions). You might be stuck using a conical for any range if it is the 1:24" version.

Conicals give you advantages in range. But if your shots are under 100 yards they aren't at all necessary.


Back in the day 1 turn in the length of the barrel was a common twist for the RB. Since the American rifle often had a "4 foot" barrel this twist was very common. In Europe they made shor barrels Jaegers and English Sporting rifles with one turn in short barrels. By this they produced twists that were far to fast for the ball size. the result of a large ball and a fast twist, often 24-26", was a blown patch. The large ball more often than not over 62 just had too much rotational inertia to spin up with a large charge, the typical charge for rifle using a .680 RB might be 60-80 grains or less as a result of the over twisting and I think the rifling form in some instances and perhaps the ball/patch fit to the bore may have been a factor. As a result hunters in Africa or India would overload and loose accuracy or simply revert to the smoothbore.
The answer that was cooked up in the early 19th c was the fitted belted ball and two groove rifling the British Military Brunswick rifle used this system. Apparently in an attempt to over come the use of two ball sizes for the Baker. One for best accuracy, sniping, and the other for rapid reload "tactical" use.
All this in spite of testing by Baker in the late 18th c with slow twists and the Baker Military rifle having a slow twist. AND the American rifles with slow twists. It was so bad that Forsythe wrote "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" as an educational exercise. But he then went perhaps too far the other way with twists in 90 to 120" range in 16-14-12 bore rifles. I think that with a 69 (14 bore) rifle that twists slower than 72 are not needed. A 48 has proven to be a great RB twist for the calibers used in most traditional American rifles regardless of time period. When TC started making their so called "Hawken" they used the traditional Hawken twist of 48". This twist will marignally stabilize a 2 caliber long bullet in the typical American calibers. Remembering that in a 45 caliber for example, a long range bullet 3 calibers+ long required a 18 to 20" twist.
The early American experiments with a bullet was the "Picket" or Sugar Loaf" bullet. These were short pointed or flat point cloth patched bullets. The cloth patch required a short bullet with a very short contact area with the bore. About the same as a RB. These were and are very difficult to impossible to load straight without a piston started that is fitted to the muzzle of the barrel or in some cases the false muzzle. Its simply impossible to get accuracy otherwise. But the Picket would shoot much better at 200 and even 400 yards than the RB ever could. It was just not practical for hunting due to the starter employed.
GuideStarter.jpg

Which is not only heavy its easily damaged.
The really accurate picket rifles were usually a gain twist ending somewhere in the "30s" for a twist. Since as I stated the 48" is marginal for elongated projectiles in real life.

Dan
 
40 cal Pickets. The flat base FP version shoots best and I abandoned the round base pointed one.

PicketbulletsLR.jpg


Weight of teh FP version is about 150 grains. Swaged from lead wire in this.

Picketswage.jpg
 
I have come to prefer rifling useful with long bullets as well as short bullets.
That's a twist faster than 48".
 
Thanks for the interesting info, the longer this post goes the more I realize I don't know much about ML. Which is fine this forum is making me become obsessed with ML. I find I have more questions now then I did before. You mentioned that your hammer could get blown to half or full cock. I am assuming the pressure would be at a dangerous level to do that. What is a good base line to make sure that overcharging doesn't happen. I.E. for 50 cal do not exceed 100 gr of 2f. Also you said that nipples can erode, I never gave that a thought. How do you know when to replace them?
 
colorado clyde said:
The general rule is that guns with slow rifling twists like round balls over conicals......But many of us prefer to shoot roundballs for traditional and economical reasons......Also many competitions are roundball only...

Many conical shooters use modern ones that we don't discuss.....( see forum rule #9 )

Your gun will tell you what it likes to shoot if you decide to shoot a conical, but in many cases it boils down to personal preference.

Conical vs. roundball is a lot like Coke vs. Pepsi

P.S. It's also a good idea to consult your owners manual.

If we read Sir Samuel Baker's experiences, he hunted with MLs most of his life, we find an account of his two groove 6 bore "devil stopper" that weighed something like 22 pounds and shot a belted ball. It "never failed to floor a charging Elephant". He decided to use a conical, thinking it would work even better. So he had a mould made. He found that in using it that it got him into such "scrapes" that he abandoned it and reverted to the belted ball. Getting into "scrapes" when hunting Elephant is very often gruesomely fatal. Baker, BTW, virtually invented the .577 BP Express and did use conicals in various breechloaders with great success. But its really apples and oranges no matter what some "moderns" might want to think.

Then we have similar things detailed in Greeners "The Gun and Its Developement". Fur seal hunters adopted the smaller bore bulleted LR rifle because they could hit a seal at a greater distance. But they lost too many and they reverted to the RB rifle.
Reading the last paragraph (or better the last 6 or 8 pages) of Chapter 5 "More Elephant Stories" in Taylors "Pondoro" is very enlightening. Look it up in the library.
I have shot game animals, Elk, deer, antelope with both conicals (from various BP single shots) and round balls and modern stuff as well. Invariably it comes down to shot placement. People like to rail on about penetration. Penetration only need be SUFFICIENT. I have found that a deer shot in the chest with a 45-67 caliber ML will run 40 to 200 yards. I have found that deer shot with a 38-40 BP load with a short FP "conical" will run 40-60 yards (wound channels were so dismal I never used it again) a dear shot with a pretty hot jacketed bullet loaded 45-70 will run 40 to 100+ yards. A deer shot with a 44-90 Sharps with a blunt soft lead bullet will run 40-150 yards. Its SHOT PLACEMENT. SHOT PLACEMENT KILLS. 54 caliber ML pistol deer ran about 40 yards and piled up. Heart shot in this case or got the arteries been 15 years or more. Elk with 54 RB at about 100 yards, went down at the shot, then when I was about to start the ball got up and did a blind dash (even toward the road!) and piled up. broke the front leg (on a BIG cow) and for the aorta. A pure lead .495 to .662 RB on a deer will give about 30" of penetration on raking shots. I have NEVER had a properly placed RB fail to kill the animal as well as anything else would have, excepting some modern stuff that will destroy significant amounts of meat. I have had LOTS of deer especially, run off after shot with ANYTHING. A 45 caliber RB within its range is a better deer killer than a 45 caliber hard cast 500 grain RN. The "magic" is in SHOT PLACEMENT.


Dan
 
colorado clyde said:
I think the groove depth means a lot so it can spin the ball.

It does......
One of the problems with conicals is that they are longer than a round ball. Longer projectiles require more spin for stabilization, spin is relative to velocity (more velocity=more rpm's). Often, it is not possible to achieve sufficient velocity/stabilization and maintain rifling engagement in guns with shallow rifling, when muzzleloading.

However, there are ways around this problem, Using methods like those used by Idaho Ron....
There are also modern methods but we don't discuss them.

More velocity doesn't mean more spin. The spin is set by the rifling. A 1/48 twist will spin the bullet one time every four feet of distance traveled, regardless of the velocity. Otherwise, you'd have to state the rpm on a sliding scale. Twist would be meaningless.
 
spin is relative to velocity (more velocity=more rpm's).

Read it again .....
The rifling imparts spin on the bullet. The twist rate at a given velocity determines the RPM of the bullet. Increasing the velocity will also increase the RPM's
Remember RPM is a measurement of time (revolutions per minute)

If it still doesn't make sense.
read this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling
 
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RPM is not how twist rate is measured. It's unimportant, really. Twist rate is measured in distance..inches, usually. RPM can be determined if you want to pursue it, I guess, but the figure is not important.

RPF (revolutions per foot) is what you're looking for and it's what the twist rate is for, at any velocity. It does not increase with higher velocity. For a 48 twist, as I said, one rotation every four feet. You can figure out how many times it rotates by measuring the distance to the target. Say 100 feet, the ball will rotate 25 times.
 
Tanker said:
Thanks for the interesting info, the longer this post goes the more I realize I don't know much about ML. Which is fine this forum is making me become obsessed with ML. I find I have more questions now then I did before. You mentioned that your hammer could get blown to half or full cock. I am assuming the pressure would be at a dangerous level to do that. What is a good base line to make sure that overcharging doesn't happen. I.E. for 50 cal do not exceed 100 gr of 2f.
The only safe way to go is to not exceed the manufacturer's instructions. Some barrels and breeches are stronger than other ones.

Also you said that nipples can erode, I never gave that a thought. How do you know when to replace them?
That's a great question. Some folks use a wire to gage when the hole is over a certain size. And some new from the factory nipples have holes like a dog whistle. My version if it looks big I change it for a smaller one. Or if back flow freckles my arm (I'm left handed and almost all muzzleloading arms are left brained) I figger out what time it is pretty quick.
 
Gene.....buddy
I'm starting to think you're just trolling me.. :hmm:
Please re-read my post....

I said:
It does......
One of the problems with conicals is that they are longer than a round ball. Longer projectiles require more spin for stabilization, spin is relative to velocity (more velocity=more rpm's). Often, it is not possible to achieve sufficient velocity/stabilization and maintain rifling engagement in guns with shallow rifling, when muzzleloading.

Gene L said:
RPM is not how twist rate is measured.
No Kidding Sherlock? and I never said that....However, twist rate x velocity x time = RPM.

RPF (revolutions per foot) is what you're looking
Wrong again.....Revolutions per foot, or rather revolutions per inch is your twist rate e.g. 1 turn in 66 inches or I turn in 5.5 feet.

It does not increase with higher velocity
Rpm does because RPM is a function of time, velocity affects time. (Einstein)
Here is the formula for calculating RPM of a bullet.
MV(muzzle velocity) x (12/twist rate in inches) x 60(seconds) = Bullet RPM

Notice.... if you change the muzzle velocity the RPM changes. :slap:
 
I make it a rule to never argue with a man who quotes Einstein. What you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is rate twists rates are not useful and are arbitrary based on the velocity of the bullet? The formula is D=RT, but that's forward velocity, not rotational velocity.

Source from bullet rotational speed website.

"Quick Version: MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM

Example One: In a 1:12”³ twist barrel the bullet will make one complete revolution for every 12”³ (or 1 foot) it travels through the bore. This makes the RPM calculation very easy. With a velocity of 3000 feet per second (FPS), in a 1:12”³ twist barrel, the bullet will spin 3000 revolutions per SECOND (because it is traveling exactly one foot, and thereby making one complete revolution, in 1/3000 of a second). To convert to RPM, simply multiply by 60 since there are 60 seconds in a minute. Thus, at 3000 FPS, a bullet will be spinning at 3000 x 60, or 180,000 RPM, when it leaves the barrel.

Example Two: What about a faster twist rate, say a 1:8”³ twist? We know the bullet will be spinning faster than in Example One, but how much faster? Using the formula, this is simple to calculate. Assuming the same MV of 3000 FPS, the bullet makes 12/8 or 1.5 revolutions for each 12”³ or one foot it travels in the bore. Accordingly, the RPM is 3000 x (12/8) x 60, or 270,000 RPM."

Keep in mind, however, that bullets seldom rotate for a full minute before hitting the target or falling to the ground. So you have to figure out the time it's exposed, which will probably be 1/5 of a second of exposure.
 
Gene L said:
I make it a rule to never argue with a man who quotes Einstein.

Well That's your prerogative....But If you re-read my post, I referenced Einstein, Not quoted, as evident by the lack of quotation marks or the use of a quote box.

What you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is rate twists rates are not useful and are arbitrary based on the velocity of the bullet?
That is NOT! what I am saying and furthermore your statement is unintelligible.

What kind of formula is,

The formula is D=RT,
What is D and what is RT ?


but that's forward velocity, not rotational velocity.

Not sure what you're referencing....
But, forward velocity is a component when calculating RPM's of a bullet fired from a rifled barrel.

Can't wait to see what you say next..... :haha:
 
Gene L said:
I make it a rule to never argue with a man who quotes Einstein. What you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is rate twists rates are not useful and are arbitrary based on the velocity of the bullet? The formula is D=RT, but that's forward velocity, not rotational velocity.

Source from bullet rotational speed website.

"Quick Version: MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM

Example One: In a 1:12”³ twist barrel the bullet will make one complete revolution for every 12”³ (or 1 foot) it travels through the bore. This makes the RPM calculation very easy. With a velocity of 3000 feet per second (FPS), in a 1:12”³ twist barrel, the bullet will spin 3000 revolutions per SECOND (because it is traveling exactly one foot, and thereby making one complete revolution, in 1/3000 of a second). To convert to RPM, simply multiply by 60 since there are 60 seconds in a minute. Thus, at 3000 FPS, a bullet will be spinning at 3000 x 60, or 180,000 RPM, when it leaves the barrel.

Example Two: What about a faster twist rate, say a 1:8”³ twist? We know the bullet will be spinning faster than in Example One, but how much faster? Using the formula, this is simple to calculate. Assuming the same MV of 3000 FPS, the bullet makes 12/8 or 1.5 revolutions for each 12”³ or one foot it travels in the bore. Accordingly, the RPM is 3000 x (12/8) x 60, or 270,000 RPM."

Keep in mind, however, that bullets seldom rotate for a full minute before hitting the target or falling to the ground. So you have to figure out the time it's exposed, which will probably be 1/5 of a second of exposure.

Great edit....Now read it and understand it.
 
Hey Tanker, by the way, I'm fixing to break in a flinter TC Renegade with the rifling freshed out to .52 bore and 28" twist. That hole is gonna already be pretty big so I'm not real sure how big is too big. Maybe when the sideways thrust requires windage adjustment!
:haha:
 
:thumbsup: Yep, if you don't hit the right spot almost anything will only wound an animal at least long enough for it to get lost.
 
colorado clyde said:
I make it a rule to never argue with a man who quotes Einstein.

WHY! :hmm:
That seems like a dumb rule...Besides....I didn't know we were arguing.... :haha:

I'm still awaiting an explanation of how twist rates change with velocity. Hmmm...not in my experience.

I've been shooting for almost 50 years and have argued this subject before. Although I don't often receive ridicule as a tactic to avoid science. And common sense.

A 48 twist will rotate the ball once ever 48 inches. If this is wrong, please point it out to me how it's wrong. RPM is only a side issue, like how many MPH the bullet rotates. A useless statistic with a round ball. I don't see how it's important.

Please explain how is that important? Bullets do not rotate for a minute, the time of flight is more like 1/4 of a second until the projectile reaches the target. It's probably a lot less. That's the T in D=RT (Distance is Rate x Time. If you want to know the Rate of velocity or the Time of flight, you can manipulate the formula to R/T=D or however.)

A round ball is the lightest projectile in bore diameter. It also has the lowest ballistic coefficient of any projectile. Which is one of the reasons why minie balls were adopted.
 
colorado clyde said:
D=RT (Distance is Rate x Time. If you want to know the Rate of velocity or the Time of flight),

Great...but what does that actually calculate and how do we apply it...Give me a real number scenario.
The D=rt formula does not calculate Rate of twist, rpm's, or rotations per second
It is irrelevant to anything I have discussed...
 
D=RT isn't important to rotational speed, but it's very important to velocity. Since I don't think velocity has much to do with rotation, as I said, it's not important to rotation.

IMO, a bullet at 1/48 twist will leave the barrel at 1/48 and will continue this until it hits the target.

Rotational speed is neither enhanced nor reduced by velocity at reasonable distances. A 48 twist cannot rotate faster than 1:48, it may slow down.

They say "they" being Internet sources, which you can choose to evaluate, they say a bullet will continue to rotate however the distance. Or the rational velocity will slow so much as to be not all that important.

A 1:48 may lose a few rpm as the trajectory deteriorates, but according to un-credited sources, rational velocity degrades much slower that forward velocity. But we're talking about RPM, when the bullet flight is in terms of a fraction of a second, so is the degrade of the rotational speed important or noticeable? I don't think so.

Once the bullet his the target or the ground, the rotation stops.

A practical (although unimportant) word construct of D=RT would be; "A bullet travels at 1300 fps for .05 seconds. What distance will it have covered?"

I know this seems conter-intuitive. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just post what I post as a matter of technical information. And it could be wrong, but I don't see how. The RPM is several hundred thousand rotations per minute, but bullets typically don't travel a minute. So RPM in my opinion is like measuring a false narrative, like "How many MPH will a bullet rotate?" You can come up with a number, but is it relevant?
 
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