Round ball vs. Sabots

[Tsegoweleh]

Hello All,
I know this has been covered many times but i am unable to find the info.
What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?
Is there any advantage to saboted bullets in velocity or range and accruracy?

 

Tseg, what's up?

are you talkin about conicals. i think you need a faster twist to stabalize them. ive never shot a conical but i hear they hold energy at longer ranges.
you huntin big bear this year are ya? dude i got a big rb gun that you can borrow :grin:
:v

 

[Tom Compton]

the longer the projectile in relation to its diameter, the faster the projectile must spin to stabilize.

70 gr .223 bullets need 1:7 twist even tho muzzle velocity is >3,000 fps. 150 gr .308 bullets from a .30-06 require 1:10 at 2,900 fps.

You can use a faster twistm a higher muzzle velocity or a combination of both to get the required revolutions per second on the projectile.

As I recall from some time ago, the Greenhill formula is a good predicter of required twist.

The last time I shot a sabot, it was a .22 bullet in a .30-30 case for plinking varmits.

TC

 

[jerem0621]

I personally have shot both sabot and PRB and I shoot PRB better. I guess it just depends on what your limit is personally with muzzleloaders. As for me, I keep my effective open sight range to about 50 yards, ymmv on range. I killed a deer the other day with a PRB, he walked 15 yards and fell over dead. What are you going to be doing with the gun? Hunting, target practice, long range target practice, etc. Oh yea, I have never shot a sabot out of my traditional Muzzleloaders, before I saw the light I had the other modern version of high powered rifles that loaded from the muzzle. PRB is superior in many many ways, IMHO.

Jerem

 

[reddog]

No advantages, OK accuracy to mebbe 25-30 yds.

 

[longcruise]

I know this has been covered many times

Covered? More like trounced! :haha:

What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?

As previously stated, the Greenhill formula is a pretty good predictor but it's never precise.

Is there any advantage to saboted bullets in velocity or range and accruracy?

I found, shooting 180 grain .430 hp bullets in Hornady sabots out of my 1:48 TC barrel when compared to 180 grain round balls from the same rifle that velocity and accuracy were superior with the sabot and slug. Even 200 grain .429 slugs in sabots were more accurate and shot faster. Some 255 grain .429 wadcutters shot fairly accurately but that was the top end before they started to roll over in flight. A 320 grain .430 was sideways before it made 20 yards.

You did not mention the twist of your barrel but maybe this gives you an idea of what to expect.

Here's another thing to consider; The 180 .429 hollow point slugs are not designed for the velocities you can reach in an ml using a sabot. Mine got up to 2150 fps. IMO, that pretty much made it a varmint bullet in terms of terminal performance. I'd never shoot it at a big game animal.

I'm an addicted experimenter and get a kick out of trying different things just for curiosities sake. But, when it comes to hunting, matches and general shooting I always find myself pushing a prb down the bore.

 

[Walks with fire]

I don't think you will find that sabots work very well in roundball twist rifles. The gentlemen here shoot roundballs and will discuss conicals; but plastic saboted modern bullets are off target. First off; the roundball will outperform the bullet from traditional twists. Conicals that will shoot well from them are out there and IMO are good choices for short range(100 yds.) game.

I own a couple GM barreled flinters in 1/28 twist and they are outstanding shooters with heavy conicals and saboted 300 grain pistol bullets. It's about like shooting a 45/70. They shoot the lighter bullets real well too. I only took one deer with a 300 grain xtp and it was complete penetration at 65 yards; it went straight down. The fast twist barrels are ok but I still prefer the roundball. I tried them out for a while but really don't like them nearly as much as a roundball.

 

[Walks with fire]

I decided to make a second post on this subject because my time to edit expired on the first one.

Roundballs are extremely accurate and start out as large caliber to begin with; second they are pure lead and are perfect for black powder velocity. They penetrate and expand well at these velocities. Because they are patched; barrel leading is impossible and the thickness of the patching can be adjusted to provide various loadings. The charge can be adjusted up and down to provide more or less recoil and still yield outstanding accuracy. They are cheaper and more fun to shoot than anything out there. Stick with the roundball and save yourself alot of expense and time. :surrender:

 

[Bob Gular]

Out of curiousity I tried some .50 sabots with .451 255 grain bullets in my TC Renegade w/1 in 48 twist. Deadly accurate at 100 yards, between 2 and 3 inch groups. I don't use them to hunt with, maybe it's the plastic thing. Depends on your point of view whether or not doing the traditional thing is important to you.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

ditto Bob. I shot mine .50 at 50 yds with cast .451 in sabots, 250 grs, TCFP slugs. 1-48 twist. groups very well.
but so does the Lee REAL slug.
now I don't need the sabots.

 

[tg]

I truely think the only advantage of useing sabots and modern bullets is in favour of the manufactures of said accessories, the PRB has been proven to take any game animal if range and bore size are a reasonable match.

 

[rawdog]

Much good info has been given in reply to this question.

IN addition to the point of barrel twist, rifling depth is an issue too. Barrels that shoot conicals well tend to have shallower rifling than barrels that shoot patched roundballs well. This is because the typically deeper rifling of roundball barrel is harder for a lead conical, or a plastic sabot, to evenly fill and seal.

Shooting a roundball in a conical barrel is possible, yet the faster twist and shallower rifling is much more liable to allow the PRB to "skip" the lands than to retain a good hold and impart the proper spin.

Yet, never say never.....I once told a friend that his brand spankin' new conical-bullet gun (1:28") with shallow rifling would not shoot a patched roundball accurately....and the first shot with a ball cut the black bullseye dead center. Well.....it wasn't supposed to!!! so much for my figgerin'!

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

In two of my T/C guns I shoot the Cheap Shot Sabots (all lead bullet) and they shoot great.
Both guns have a 1/48 twist. They are 240 Gr. and a lot less kick that the 370 Gr. maxi ball.
The others I shoot PRB'S.

 

[Stumpkiller]

What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?

Right up there with my opinion of jet skis, rap music or slamming 25 year old scotch as fast as I can just to get drunk.

No laws against any of 'em but they're not what I'm about.

 

[merdean]

The best luck I ever had with a sabot was shooting a .50 cal rifle with sabots designed for .357 pistol bullets. I used a .350RB instead and was able to shoot rabbits at 30 yards. Plastic stunk up the smoke. When I tried sabots with actual pistol bullets they always keyholed at 25 yards. PRB is cheaper and easier to load and much more accurate. Just my experience.

Merdean

 

[Tom Compton]

Original post was about conicals in "slow twist" barrels. A 1:48 twist may be slow to a suppository shooter but is fast to a PRB shooter. Kinda Clintonish, but, depends on what the meaning of slow is.

Conicals in barrels of 1:60, 1:70 or similar will not be as accurate at distance as a PRB without increasing the velocity about 50%. Definition of "at distance" is 100 yards or greater.

Guns w/ 1:48 twist barrels w/ .008 deep rifling came to prominence in the 70s for the TC Maxi-ball and therefore works well w/ REAL and saboted pistol bullets. The 1:48 twist will not do as well w/ modern rifle bullets that are 3X or more greater than diameter. They will not be as accurate with heavily loaded PRBs, either. The reason for the many different rates of twist is to maximize accuracy for a given projectile at a narrow velocity range.

Rawdog, don't worry about the one shot in the black, even a blind sow finds an aqcorn sometimes. :v
TC

 

[Tsegoweleh]

Oatsayo All,
i want to thank you all for your input and experiences. I was thinking the modern bullet with its modern coefficient would be more accurate at longer range than a PRB. Seems that that may not be the case.
My rifle shoots very well with PRBs and i will probably stay with that. Although I may try some 30 cal bullets with sabots just for the heck of it.

Ill keep you all posted if things seem to work better.

Thanks again my friends.

 

[Stumpkiller]

A .30 cal bullet is designed to spin once in 10 to 14 inches of travel. Round ball twists are one turn in 60 to 80 inches. T/C and others use a "best & worst of both worlds" 1 revolution in 48" for their traditional mid-size bores.

No question a conical is a more capable projectile when used in the proper bore.

But if we wanted efficient we would have skipped muzzleloaders entirely and gone for a .308 Winchester or a .280 Remington. Taking up a muzzleloader should inspire you to take up the challenges that go with it - not try and engineer it into something it's not and shouldn't be.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Why are the moderators even allowing this discussion? Ron

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOur mler is not going to produce 10-shot, .10" groups at 100 yds, as they are doing with the best of the .22 centerfire guns, shooting modern jacketed bullets.

I agree with Stumpkiller. Don't try to make your gun into something its NOT. How about you just Enjoy your MLer for what it is, and then work on your woodsmanship skills, to get closer to game?

Just a thought.