round balls don't do well

[Carl.allen934]

I got a .50 that just won't shoot balls. Patches really do look good enough to shoot again. Tried tight patches loose patches 5 kinds of lube. 2f-3f from 50-100 grs. 4" groups at 50 are the best I've managed. It'll put that 360gr Lee Minnie in 1/2" at 50 yards and around an inch at 100..... Wish there was someone near here to play with it some and see if they could get it to shoot a ball. It's just a cheapy beater hunting rifle anyways but I would shoot it a lot more if it would shoot a ball decent.

You didn't say what you had but if your twist rate is faster then a traditional ML then it won't shot an RB very acurate

 

[Kmcmichael]

I’ve never broken 2 MOA at 100 with a PRB but believe me when and if I do, I will tell everyone about it.

Currently I am very happy with a 3” group.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You didn't say what you had but if your twist rate is faster then a traditional ML then it won't shot an RB very acurate

Actually that hasn't been the case since rifling went from thin grooves done by hand or machine, to grooves and lands being equal widths. It reappeared for a short time when some modern barrels were rifled with shallow groove depth, but the "skipping" over the rifling due reasonable powder loads in faster than 1:48 twist rates is not a common thing these days. The Germans had faster than 1:48 twist rates in their target rifles on a regular basis in the 18th century, for example.

Another myth is that slow twists won't stabilize conical bullets like Minnie Balls, but then you have the highly accurate "three-band" 1853 Enfield Rifle, with a 1:78 twist shooting minnies.

LD

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Go down in size on the ball to a 490 and a 15 th patch use white lithium grease for your lube bet it will shoot better and stay away from the coolaid or I mean bore butter every body thinks is so great.

I am one of the folks who likes "Kool-Aid"... and I even know how to spell it correctly .

I agree about the patch and ball sizes, if not the white lithium grease for this purpose. T/C Bore Butter, by whatever name you call it has been on the market for many years now. if it didn't work, it would have gone away with the old Maxi-Lube petroleum based product it supplanted back in the eighties. So far as I am aware, nobody is trying to market white lithium grease as a black powder lube... and in fact nobody is marketing any petroleum products for that purpose with the sole exception of Ballistol, which is a product that I have not tried as of yet.

I do use petroleum greases to lubricate lock bearing surfaces and things like revolver arbors. I even use conventional gun oils to lubricate sights, some lock mechanisms and to coat the exterior of my guns. I use anti-seize products for the threads of nipples and such that are probably petroleum products. For lubricating balls and bullets, I stick to non-petroleum products like T/C Bore Butter, Crisco, cooking spray and other stuff of that nature. I have yet to try jojoba oil, but as it is supposedly a good match for sperm oil, I might give that a shot some day.

The Lubrication Wars have been going on now for many years and will never be won by either side. If you like to use axle grease on your patches, groovy. In the end, you do what works for you and I will do the same.

 

[Carl.allen934]

Actually that hasn't been the case since rifling went from thin grooves done by hand or machine, to grooves and lands being equal widths. It reappeared for a short time when some modern barrels were rifled with shallow groove depth, but the "skipping" over the rifling due reasonable powder loads in faster than 1:48 twist rates is not a common thing these days. The Germans had faster than 1:48 twist rates in their target rifles on a regular basis in the 18th century, for example.

Another myth is that slow twists won't stabilize conical bullets like Minnie Balls, but then you have the highly accurate "three-band" 1853 Enfield Rifle, with a 1:78 twist shooting minnies.

LD

The civil war muskets only had 3 Lands and grooves they only used a 60 gr charge they were slow. Also the bullets were short so they didn't have a problem stabilizing. Round ball ain't that acurate in a fast twist like 1:28 or 1:20. I just built a 1:20 .45 cal it needs the long 500 gr .450 bullet.

 

[Ed C.]

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Dale_A_Raby_The_Wives_of_Jacob?id=JvmBAwAAQBAJ
This is the "prequel" to the story I made the gun for. Dunno if I will ever publish the second book as I have cancer and will be dying in a couple years more or less. Sucks to be me huh?

When we get old we have to die of something. We lived through a good period of time in this country. Make the most of every day you have!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The civil war muskets only had 3 Lands and grooves they only used a 60 gr charge they were slow. Also the bullets were short so they didn't have a problem stabilizing. Round ball ain't that acurate in a fast twist like 1:28 or 1:20. I just built a 1:20 .45 cal it needs the long 500 gr .450 bullet.

That's nice but according to the post to which I replied, a 1:47 twist rate would not be very accurate with a round ball.... with 1:48 being the most common twist rate.... I disagree due to the evidence over time. Further, Pedersoli recommends a round ball with their 1:24 twist rate Jaeger

LD

 

[user 34300]

I have not found greases and oils to give the best accuracy.

For target shooting I now use a "dry" patch. Something in the range of 5:1 water to Ballistol. Soak the patch material. Wring it. Let dry. Cut at the muzzle. Wipe between shot with a slightly damp patch.

That change has halved my average group size. Using that routine, if a barrel will not not shoot around 1" @ 50 yds with peep sights, something is wrong. With the old TC barrel I would be looking at 0.015'-18 patches and the 490 ball. Get a guided metal range rod and quality guided short starter.

 

[dr.s.goerisch]

A rare honest shooter.

This answer was the best I ever read in any of these forums. Nobody in the above comments ever gave a list of comparable parameters of there shooting: At 100 yards, did they fire their rifle offhand, standing? Kneeling, prone? Resting their gun on whatever?

 

[chorizo]

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Dale_A_Raby_The_Wives_of_Jacob?id=JvmBAwAAQBAJ
This is the "prequel" to the story I made the gun for. Dunno if I will ever publish the second book as I have cancer and will be dying in a couple years more or less. Sucks to be me huh?

Dale, all the more reason to write and publish the second. We all die, some sooner than others. Sounds like you have made peace with that.

Hang tough and get it done.
Semper fi.

 

[dr.s.goerisch]

Whenever you change something in your setup, take care to take notes of what you did.
Never change more than one of your load ingredients at a time. I recall a time when all of a sudden n o t h i n g seemed to wotk for me anymore. I hade been fairly good at German type target shooting (standing, offhand, at 50 meters/app 50 yards) with a TC Hawken, caliber .45, using only cylindrical "Maxi ball" projectiles cast from pure lead in TC made moulds, lubing them with Maxi lube grease provided by TC, which came in plastic pots and looked like spun honey, but with a rather wax-like consistency. At our club, everybody used that rifle and that bullet. We used 50 to 60 grains of German-made BP called Wasag PP (finer grade Wasag PPP was used for pistols) - not more, nor less.
This worked perfectly well for me - getting good goups at 50 meters, hole in hole, getting my team a silver medal int he state championships ...
till some guys (and a few girls, too) got even better groups, using Swiss PB, grade 2 for the 50 yards rifle competitions a n d for sixguns at 25 meters, gra 1 (finer powder) for pistols, at range 25. This is still the real stuff to shoot BP in urop in the year of 2023.
(We found that all BP substitutes just did not work as good, and offerend no advantages on real BP whatsoever).

In the mid-80ties, Swiss PB was found to burn faster, and a lot cleaner than the old German-made WASAG (and cost about twice as much).

Of course I bought some Swiss powder...
My bad luck: At the very same time, TC Maxi Lube became scarce, after a while completely unavailable in Germany/Europe.
After a while, gun stores offered a Maxi Lube - but it came in plastic tubes lik toothpaste, looked, smelled and tasted differently - darker, looking like and handling like regular axle grease (I still doubt that it was anything but axle grease, trying to cheat BP shooters an making a million bucks...).

That was when I (and many German friends) lost faith in TC. Most shooters in Europe now bought Italian-made rifles of better design and quality than those of the 70ties and 80ties (which were mostly junk). Some got custom-made rifles now made in Germany, gunsmith names like Kuemmerle came up...

I got myself an American-made drop-in replacement barrel (GM) for my TC Hawken, and soon found out it was made for RB and 0.15 patches made from anything like European pillow ticking, to US made and precut round patches. RB do not give me the tight groups I once got using TC Maxi balls and TC Maxi lube - ok, but then that was over 30 years ago!

 

[smokepolehall]

Geez y'all be shooting well for sure. I don't think i can even see a 4" circle dot at a 100 yds with my open sights. Them days have been gone for 20 yrs. Spect i may can see a 4" red dot circle at 50 yds or maybe not. I can see a 2" at 25 yds. I would be a happy camper to put a 6" group at 100 yds. Rb's from any of mine with 1:48 twist which is 4 of them is something i will have try out as the weather warms up.

 

[dr.s.goerisch]

I have not found greases and oils to give the best accuracy.

For target shooting I now use a "dry" patch. Something in the range of 5:1 water to Ballistol. Soak the patch material. Wring it. Let dry. Cut at the muzzle. Wipe between shot with a slightly damp patch.

That change has halved my average group size. Using that routine, if a barrel will not not shoot around 1" @ 50 yds with peep sights, something is wrong. With the old TC barrel I would be looking at 0.015'-18 patches and the 490 ball. Get a guided metal range rod and quality guided short starter.

Scota, that all sounds good to me, and most is identical to my own experience. I've been trying thread cutting oil mixed with water, but found that this lubricant used in mechanics shops obviously is great for attracting mould growth.
I come from the land of Ballistol...this old-timey gun oil is known for its antiseptic qualities. I will give your recipe a try.

10 years or so ago, I used to be soaking my patches in "Wonder lube" (US made, yellow, smelling like good ole Double Bubble chewing gum). Melted this stuff in a can on top of my candle lantern, soaked those patches, let tem dry - perfect patches in any kind of weather. When shooting in real hot weather, I used wads made from beer coasters, or some semolina, to protect my powder charge (Swiss grade 2) from the grease sweating.

When the Wonder stuff became harder to come by in Germany a few years ago, I switched to soaking my patches in (alcohol based) car window cleanser, shortly before loading. This stuff also works fine for wetting cleaning patches I run between shots. All fine but this method also calls for using those protective wads, or semolina, over my loads of grade 2 Swiss BP. I shoot poured charges of 46 grains for .395 RB from my .40 cal x 30" GM barrel, and 58 grains for my .50 cal flintlock rifles (one TC Hawken, the other with a .50 cal x 30 GM barrel, loading .490 RB, with 015 patches in all of the above.
It's been nearly 30 years since we been shooting BP rifle at distances longer than 50 meters (which is standard for competitions in Germany) ...at US military bases, in Wiesbaden, Grafenwoehr, Kaiserslautern, Wildflecken, all in Germany. Found that 100 meters plus distances appear to be hard on a RB, with only some lucky shots. At those 100 meter competitions also popular in Germany you don't see any round balls, competitors there are using cast lead projectiles, long cylinder with many grease grooves.

 

[burlesontom]

I do use petroleum greases to lubricate lock bearing surfaces and things like revolver arbors. I even use conventional gun oils to lubricate sights, some lock mechanisms and to coat the exterior of my guns. I use anti-seize products for the threads of nipples and such that are probably petroleum products. For lubricating balls and bullets, I stick to non-petroleum products like T/C Bore Butter, Crisco, cooking spray and other stuff of that nature. I have yet to try jojoba oil, but as it is supposedly a good match for sperm oil, I might give that a shot some day.

Now you got me thinking. I normally use water soluble oil mixed with water for a patch lube. I can fire shot after shot with that because each time you run the ball down the bore you clean it. I really never shoot targets from a bench with a BP rifle. Some but not often. If I can hit a 13oz coffee can at 90 yards thats good enough for shooting deer.

Now a year or so ago I bought a 5 pound block of Shea Butter off Etsy to rub on my dry diabetic feet. The stuff works better than any lotion or Crisco, Vaselene I have tried. Now I'm thinking since its sort of on the thick side I think I may try mixing it with some olive oil just like you do with Bees Wax and try that for a patch lube. I have no complaints with using the water soluble oil mixed about 12/1. I have used this for years and never had any gumming or rust inside or out on my barrels.

And Dale Raby never give up or give in. My dad had lung cancer and was given 6 months to live. That hard headed German lived another 7 years after he was cured by radiation. Then I went to his house and caught him smoking while on oxagen. I was so damn angry with him I had to leave. I wonder how much longer he may have lived if he would have gave up smoking?

My wife had breast cancer. Her grandmother died of breast cancer and her mother died of cancer in general. So she opted for a mastectomy. An ugly disfiguring operation I would never wish on any woman. And that was after 8 Chemo treatments. A very tough ride. And 7 years later she is still alive and as mean to me as she ever was. So never quit. Never give in. Dying is part of living. Everyone dies. But make the best of what you have. Good luck friend.

 

[Carl.allen934]

Now you got me thinking. I normally use water soluble oil mixed with water for a patch lube. I can fire shot after shot with that because each time you run the ball down the bore you clean it. I really never shoot targets from a bench with a BP rifle. Some but not often. If I can hit a 13oz coffee can at 90 yards thats good enough for shooting deer.

Now a year or so ago I bought a 5 pound block of Shea Butter off Etsy to rub on my dry diabetic feet. The stuff works better than any lotion or Crisco, Vaselene I have tried. Now I'm thinking since its sort of on the thick side I think I may try mixing it with some olive oil just like you do with Bees Wax and try that for a patch lube. I have no complaints with using the water soluble oil mixed about 12/1. I have used this for years and never had any gumming or rust inside or out on my barrels.

And Dale Raby never give up or give in. My dad had lung cancer and was given 6 months to live. That hard headed German lived another 7 years after he was cured by radiation. Then I went to his house and caught him smoking while on oxagen. I was so damn angry with him I had to leave. I wonder how much longer he may have lived if he would have gave up smoking?

My wife had breast cancer. Her grandmother died of breast cancer and her mother died of cancer in general. So she opted for a mastectomy. An ugly disfiguring operation I would never wish on any woman. And that was after 8 Chemo treatments. A very tough ride. And 7 years later she is still alive and as mean to me as she ever was. So never quit. Never give in. Dying is part of living. Everyone dies. But make the best of what you have. Good luck friend.

My Sunday school teacher has lung cancer he's on a medication seems to be doing pretty good. I know one thing stay away from sugar it feeds it and our body's don't digest the junk any way

 

[Carl.allen934]

Try a .490 ball , w/.015 patch , lightly grease lubed, and 75 to 80 gr. FFFG. Most 1 in 48 " twist barrels have a narrow sweet spot in powder charge , whereas a 1 in 60" twist , likes 80 gr. FFFG. try it

My TC Hawkins is a tack driver with a .490 and lithium greased patch with 90 gr 3F

 

[mkabe]

Thanks. I'm not all that concerned really. There is no point in worrying about things you cannot change... the trick is to learn what can and can't be changed. Mortality is one of the latter category. I just take each day as it comes and try to get out and fire a shot or two each day.

My bookverse contains a barkeep named Josh. He has a couple of barmaids who are people you might have heard of, though they go by nomes-de-guerre. Josh is an... interesting character.

My hope is that I can get my print shop set up again and print a few copies of all my stories, but that may not happen. We'll just have to see.

Send me a PM with your address and I'll get you a copy of one of the short stories set in my bookverse that I did get printed up. It is called The Ganggster's Christmas. I think you'd like it.

Mr. Raby,
I got my copy of 'The Gangster's Christmas' you sent me and it's in fine shape. THANK YOU ! Will get right on it.
I thought I already wrote to thank you but can't find it so if this is a repeat just "chalk-in-up" to my old foggy mind.
Take care, keep a young mind,
mkabe

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Mr. Raby,
I got my copy of 'The Gangster's Christmas' you sent me and it's in fine shape. THANK YOU ! Will get right on it.
I thought I already wrote to thank you but can't find it so if this is a repeat just "chalk-in-up" to my old foggy mind.
Take care, keep a young mind,
mkabe

Hope you enjoy it. Tell me, did you recognize the face of the man on the cover?

 

[mkabe]

When we get old we have to die of something. We lived through a good period of time in this country. Make the most of every day you have!

Yes, and be thankful for the life and gifts given!

 

[mkabe]

Of course, It was John Herbert Dillinger, the famous bad guy and reported to have the most impressive weapons around.

Hope you enjoy it. Tell me, did you recognize the face of the man on the cover?