Seeking Opinions on a Recent Kibler SMR Purchase Experience

[EC121]

Three months ago he was "Trailwalker" when he had the Russo rifle for sale. Now he is "second rate marksman" with the same rifle for sale. Makes one wonder.

 

[jdw276]

Three months ago he was "Trailwalker" when he had the Russo rifle for sale. Now he is "second rate marksman" with the same rifle for sale. Makes one wonder.

And you took advantage of a builder based on this conversation. Would you have bought the rifle without the discount?

Makes one wonder.

May you be safe and healthy in these times.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Not sure what dog you got in this fight but you sir are getting way to personally involved in the conversation. I would conclude you know the builder very well or are the builder but the personal way you are conducting yourself is not helping and I have not read one thing where the potential buyer has sunk to your level. As such I have made my decision about you. Enjoy your day and may you be safe and healthy in these times.

Just stand by the truth will come out very soon. I wish you the best as well.

 

[AlexB]

Three months ago he was "Trailwalker" when he had the Russo rifle for sale. Now he is "second rate marksman" with the same rifle for sale. Makes one wonder.

I met him in person and purchased a Investarms with zero problems at all struck me as a nice guy.
Didn't know it was the same guy till now doesn't change anything.

 

[jdw276]

I met him in person and purchased a Investarms with zero problems at all struck me as a nice guy.
Didn't know it was the same guy till now doesn't change anything.

Folks can change their names on here all they want but it does not change the person behind the name.

 

[EC121]

And you took advantage of a builder based on this conversation. Would you have bought the rifle without the discount?

Makes one wonder.

May you be safe and healthy in these times.

How do you know what was said between the two of us? We discussed the situation and came to an equitable agreement. We have traded several custom rifles over the years. There was no advantage taking.

 

[LonestarShootR]

Folks can change their names on here all they want but it does not change the person behind the name.

Boy you got that right!

Often people change their names to cover their past history or true identity . I see it all the time with folks that try giving false names to a police officer when being questioned. Not saying it was done here but in most cases they are hiding from something. If anything it's suspicious none the less.

 

[jdw276]

Boy you got that right!

Often people change their names to cover their past history or true identity . I see it all the time with folks that try giving false names to a police officer when being questioned. Not saying it was done here but in most cases they are hiding from something. If anything it's suspicious none the less.

And others change it based on an event or something like dad, grandpa, or they like someone in history dan'l boone or an event like someone calling me second rate ......most folks have done it in life for good or bad reasons.

Ask a question and get called ...... pick it name...... non of this thread is now good for anyone but the bullies.

 

[AlexB]

Folks can change their names on here all they want but it does not change the person behind the name.

Yeah.........that was my point.

 

[wayne estes]

This has been an interesting thread to read. All of us living today glean our information from different media sources. Some television, some radio, others print, and of course social media.

It’s the responsibility of everyone either providing the information or absorbing it to be responsible for its dissemination. This forum is such a platform.

Let’s get this started by my saying that I am hateful fiendish devil that Idahomie, Trail Walker, Second Rate Marksman is alluding to! There we go it’s me!!!


A little bit about me: I’m a 66 year old retiree from a local electric company. During my 40 year career customer service and safety were so drilled into my head that it stays with me to this day. I worked for and around a whole bunch of great people. I was also exposed to the Stupid People in our society and treated them with the same respect as everyone else. Upon my retirement I mad 2 promises to myself. First thing, do right by as many people you can, second avoid all Stupid people.
I started my journey into gun making in 1984 and spent as much time as possible around masters like Herschel and Frank House, Jim Chambers, Mike Brooks, Mike Gahagan, Allen Martin, and Jud Brennan to name a few. I have built almost 200 rifles and fowlers to happy folks all over the country. I strive to make the next gun better than the last.
I was privileged to help teach the gun makers classes at Friendship, Canters Cove and here in my shop in Kentucky. I charge a modest fee and don’t charge anything if you are a military veteran. My goal is to make our sport accessible to as many people as I can.



Kits: Yes I have assembled and sold a lot of Jim Kibler kits. Most of what I assemble are what they call cosmetic seconds. Jim assures me that all will make nice guns. The have so far been great. I’ve been able to buy them for a fair price and then pass the savings on to the buyer. I can’t tell you how many (there have been a lot) where I could not find a blemish. This is testament to the high degree of quantity control that go into his product. If there anr any potential issues I try to point them out to potential buyers. I’ve also been able to pass some of the kits that I have assembled on to others for their benefit. In the past 12 months I’ve given away 3 complete rifles to local muzzle loading clubs and one to the Herschel House Woodbury School Foundation as fund raising efforts. It not about the money.


The sale with Eric Carlson aka Second Rate Marksman: Mr Carlson contacted me some time back wanting another Kibler SMR. I finally came up with one a few weeks later. My partner and I got the gun together and I texted cellphone pictures. After Mr Carlson sold a gun on the forum he contacted me and said that he would take the gun and he promptly paid me via PayPal. I have totally forgotten about a very small sliver of wood that I had to replace at the breech and 1/16” about the oblique flat of the barrel. I assured him that it was barely noticeable and not a structural flaw and that it was patched in a responsible manner and that if he was not totally satisfied he could send it back and I would split the cost of shipping. This seemed acceptable to him. At some point after that he said that he had seen a bark inclusion and pointed it out in the cellphone pictures that I had sent him. I happened to be in the shop at the time and I picked up the gun and closely inspected it under good lighting with an optivisor. No cracks no inclusion no nothing but a little lint that had dried with the finish. I explained that to no avail more times than I needed to and was to the point of believing that no good can come from this deal. That’s when my Stupid People switch was triggered.
I promptly returned the man his money.
As a maker of potentially lethal guns I reserve the right to refuse service for any reason. I would give that gun to someone before I would ever sell it to someone who challenged my honesty. I’ve worked too hard to establish it


The sale: On the day after my sad experience with Eric Carlson I called my friend in Alabama EC121 here on the forum. We’ve been friends for decades talk guns over the phone all the time. He has done me more favors than I can ever count. He is currently going through some pretty rough times with family stuff and we needed to talk. At that time I offered to just give him the gun at the center of this discussion. Things went back and forth and he would not be happy unless he paid me something for. That is how the deal went down!


It’s been interesting to see the difference between knee jerk reactions and others weighing both sides of this discussion. The bottom line here is I felt it my responsibility to deny a gun sale to someone who I wasn’t comfortable with selling a gun to. The only thing that got hurt was this fellow’s ego. I’ll ride on my reputation

Peace out friends!!
Wayne Estes

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

This has been an interesting thread to read. All of us living today glean our information from different media sources. Some television, some radio, others print, and of course social media.

It’s the responsibility of everyone either providing the information or absorbing it to be responsible for its dissemination. This forum is such a platform.

Let’s get this started by my saying that I am hateful fiendish devil that Idahomie, Trail Walker, Second Rate Marksman is alluding to! There we go it’s me!!!


A little bit about me: I’m a 66 year old retiree from a local electric company. During my 40 year career customer service and safety were so drilled into my head that it stays with me to this day. I worked for and around a whole bunch of great people. I was also exposed to the Stupid People in our society and treated them with the same respect as everyone else. Upon my retirement I mad 2 promises to myself. First thing, do right by as many people you can, second avoid all Stupid people.
I started my journey into gun making in 1984 and spent as much time as possible around masters like Herschel and Frank House, Jim Chambers, Mike Brooks, Mike Gahagan, Allen Martin, and Jud Brennan to name a few. I have built almost 200 rifles and fowlers to happy folks all over the country. I strive to make the next gun better than the last.
I was privileged to help teach the gun makers classes at Friendship, Canters Cove and here in my shop in Kentucky. I charge a modest fee and don’t charge anything if you are a military veteran. My goal is to make our sport accessible to as many people as I can.



Kits: Yes I have assembled and sold a lot of Jim Kibler kits. Most of what I assemble are what they call cosmetic seconds. Jim assures me that all will make nice guns. The have so far been great. I’ve been able to buy them for a fair price and then pass the savings on to the buyer. I can’t tell you how many (there have been a lot) where I could not find a blemish. This is testament to the high degree of quantity control that go into his product. If there anr any potential issues I try to point them out to potential buyers. I’ve also been able to pass some of the kits that I have assembled on to others for their benefit. In the past 12 months I’ve given away 3 complete rifles to local muzzle loading clubs and one to the Herschel House Woodbury School Foundation as fund raising efforts. It not about the money.


The sale with Eric Carlson aka Second Rate Marksman: Mr Carlson contacted me some time back wanting another Kibler SMR. I finally came up with one a few weeks later. My partner and I got the gun together and I texted cellphone pictures. After Mr Carlson sold a gun on the forum he contacted me and said that he would take the gun and he promptly paid me via PayPal. I have totally forgotten about a very small sliver of wood that I had to replace at the breech and 1/16” about the oblique flat of the barrel. I assured him that it was barely noticeable and not a structural flaw and that it was patched in a responsible manner and that if he was not totally satisfied he could send it back and I would split the cost of shipping. This seemed acceptable to him. At some point after that he said that he had seen a bark inclusion and pointed it out in the cellphone pictures that I had sent him. I happened to be in the shop at the time and I picked up the gun and closely inspected it under good lighting with an optivisor. No cracks no inclusion no nothing but a little lint that had dried with the finish. I explained that to no avail more times than I needed to and was to the point of believing that no good can come from this deal. That’s when my Stupid People switch was triggered.
I promptly returned the man his money.
As a maker of potentially lethal guns I reserve the right to refuse service for any reason. I would give that gun to someone before I would ever sell it to someone who challenged my honesty. I’ve worked too hard to establish it


The sale: On the day after my sad experience with Eric Carlson I called my friend in Alabama EC121 here on the forum. We’ve been friends for decades talk guns over the phone all the time. He has done me more favors than I can ever count. He is currently going through some pretty rough times with family stuff and we needed to talk. At that time I offered to just give him the gun at the center of this discussion. Things went back and forth and he would not be happy unless he paid me something for. That is how the deal went down!


It’s been interesting to see the difference between knee jerk reactions and others weighing both sides of this discussion. The bottom line here is I felt it my responsibility to deny a gun sale to someone who I wasn’t comfortable with selling a gun to. The only thing that got hurt was this fellow’s ego. I’ll ride on my reputation

Peace out friends!!
Wayne Estes

Thanks for setting the record straight Wayne.

 

[mikesto44]

I've known Wayne for a few years. YOU can't find a more honest individual any where... Time to close this thread...

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Well at least wayne got to tell his side of the story.

 

[wayne estes]

I’m not asking anyone to agree with me or my methods. I am not a “victim” like the OP but I’m tired of the sucker punches.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

I've known Wayne for a few years. YOU can't find a more honest individual any where... Time to close this thread...

Exactly - I trust @wayne estes enough he is building me more two guns currently, and about to commission another build. I tell him what I want and he builds it, sends me pics and updates often. I said Wayne I want a 40 caliber Early VA in all steel, with walnut stock, set trigger with a heavy contour swamp barrel to use for target shooting - He messages me back I got ya buddy, this is what I recommend, it will be this much, I need this much time. I trust him enough I always pay 100% upfront for all builds and toss him a few extra bucks because he doesn't charge a ton.

 

[wayne estes]

Here’s what I am talking about.

 

[Second-rate Marksman]

This has been an interesting thread to read. All of us living today glean our information from different media sources. Some television, some radio, others print, and of course social media.

It’s the responsibility of everyone either providing the information or absorbing it to be responsible for its dissemination. This forum is such a platform.

Let’s get this started by my saying that I am hateful fiendish devil that Idahomie, Trail Walker, Second Rate Marksman is alluding to! There we go it’s me!!!


A little bit about me: I’m a 66 year old retiree from a local electric company. During my 40 year career customer service and safety were so drilled into my head that it stays with me to this day. I worked for and around a whole bunch of great people. I was also exposed to the Stupid People in our society and treated them with the same respect as everyone else. Upon my retirement I mad 2 promises to myself. First thing, do right by as many people you can, second avoid all Stupid people.
I started my journey into gun making in 1984 and spent as much time as possible around masters like Herschel and Frank House, Jim Chambers, Mike Brooks, Mike Gahagan, Allen Martin, and Jud Brennan to name a few. I have built almost 200 rifles and fowlers to happy folks all over the country. I strive to make the next gun better than the last.
I was privileged to help teach the gun makers classes at Friendship, Canters Cove and here in my shop in Kentucky. I charge a modest fee and don’t charge anything if you are a military veteran. My goal is to make our sport accessible to as many people as I can.



Kits: Yes I have assembled and sold a lot of Jim Kibler kits. Most of what I assemble are what they call cosmetic seconds. Jim assures me that all will make nice guns. The have so far been great. I’ve been able to buy them for a fair price and then pass the savings on to the buyer. I can’t tell you how many (there have been a lot) where I could not find a blemish. This is testament to the high degree of quantity control that go into his product. If there anr any potential issues I try to point them out to potential buyers. I’ve also been able to pass some of the kits that I have assembled on to others for their benefit. In the past 12 months I’ve given away 3 complete rifles to local muzzle loading clubs and one to the Herschel House Woodbury School Foundation as fund raising efforts. It not about the money.


The sale with Eric Carlson aka Second Rate Marksman: Mr Carlson contacted me some time back wanting another Kibler SMR. I finally came up with one a few weeks later. My partner and I got the gun together and I texted cellphone pictures. After Mr Carlson sold a gun on the forum he contacted me and said that he would take the gun and he promptly paid me via PayPal. I have totally forgotten about a very small sliver of wood that I had to replace at the breech and 1/16” about the oblique flat of the barrel. I assured him that it was barely noticeable and not a structural flaw and that it was patched in a responsible manner and that if he was not totally satisfied he could send it back and I would split the cost of shipping. This seemed acceptable to him. At some point after that he said that he had seen a bark inclusion and pointed it out in the cellphone pictures that I had sent him. I happened to be in the shop at the time and I picked up the gun and closely inspected it under good lighting with an optivisor. No cracks no inclusion no nothing but a little lint that had dried with the finish. I explained that to no avail more times than I needed to and was to the point of believing that no good can come from this deal. That’s when my Stupid People switch was triggered.
I promptly returned the man his money.
As a maker of potentially lethal guns I reserve the right to refuse service for any reason. I would give that gun to someone before I would ever sell it to someone who challenged my honesty. I’ve worked too hard to establish it


The sale: On the day after my sad experience with Eric Carlson I called my friend in Alabama EC121 here on the forum. We’ve been friends for decades talk guns over the phone all the time. He has done me more favors than I can ever count. He is currently going through some pretty rough times with family stuff and we needed to talk. At that time I offered to just give him the gun at the center of this discussion. Things went back and forth and he would not be happy unless he paid me something for. That is how the deal went down!


It’s been interesting to see the difference between knee jerk reactions and others weighing both sides of this discussion. The bottom line here is I felt it my responsibility to deny a gun sale to someone who I wasn’t comfortable with selling a gun to. The only thing that got hurt was this fellow’s ego. I’ll ride on my reputation

Peace out friends!!
Wayne Estes

There’s one problem here, Wayne, as you continue to maintain that there was no inclusion or crack forward of the lock… it’s still visible in the picture you sent to me after I brought it to your attention!

If it was merely a piece of lint, why not brush it away?

 

[Second-rate Marksman]

Here’s what I am talking about.

And your responses to me were so much more tactful, eh?

Funny… you’ve sold two other rifles to me in the past, but I’m suddenly too stupid to be trusted with a firearm.

I’m sorry if I refuse to buy this (obviously contrived) story about you giving your friend a rifle out of the kindness of your heart. This friend of yours messaged me and told me that he’s capable of repairing the issues with the rifle— issues that you persist in claiming don’t exist.

 

[Second-rate Marksman]

Three months ago he was "Trailwalker" when he had the Russo rifle for sale. Now he is "second rate marksman" with the same rifle for sale. Makes one wonder.

I merely decided to change my username. There’s no specific rhyme or reason other than feeling it was time for a change, with a touch of self-deprecating humor.

If there are any concerns or questions, please feel free to reach out to the administrator for clarification.

P.S. The Russo rifle is still for sale!

 

[Second-rate Marksman]

Thats exactly what I was saying about "IDAHOMIE" ohhh wait that was his profile name before he got banned and removed from the page for not following the rules and acting out on here. He created a new profile now in which He now goes by "Second Rate Marksman" and wants to act like he is a saint and talks proper and plays the victim. Like I said in previous post there's so much more people on this forum don't know. I especially loved how he posted pics on the conversation and his comments here states edited under it- only he can change what he said on his text messages. Why was it edited. Hmmm likely the exact same reason he got banned from the page, not acting like an adult. But to save face here it got edited/changed. All good best of luck to ya IDAHOMIE I mean Second Rate Marksman

Just so we’re clear, I was previously served a temporary ban due to a situation stemming from an unfortunate circumstance in which I was sold two pistols on the forum that were advertised as “new” but had numerous obfuscated cracks. I gave the seller the opportunity to make it right, but they would not. The admin/moderators refused to intervene, and so I swore I would make it my mission to let others on the forum know about this individual’s unethical behavior. I was told that I would be banned until I cooled off, which I eventually did. I’ve had no run-ins with moderators since. Curiously enough, this seller appears to no longer be active on the forum.

I love this forum, and that’s why I am a proud supporting member. There are many wonderful people on here, but it’s also got its fair share of trolls (as every forum does). I’ve had many dealings (both buying and selling alike), and most of them have been wonderful. But not everyone is honest, and I’ve received more than one firearm in the past that had significant issues that weren’t mentioned in the listing or depicted in photographs.

Insofar as my “edited” text is concerned, I’m a Grammar Nazi… so I fixed a typo I had missed. Is that a crime? I was nothing but civil to Wayne in all of our texts, and I’ve shared just about every single one of them here with you all.

It should be noticed that I was probably one of Wayne’s biggest fans once, and I too probably would’ve come to his defense. Even the best reputation, built over years of hard work and trust, can be damaged by a single negative experience. No matter how excellent someone’s track record, it only takes one instance of treating a customer poorly to cast doubt on their professionalism and integrity. Maintaining a reputation requires consistent effort in every interaction, because it’s not just about what you’ve done in the past—it’s about how you handle each moment moving forward.