More than I could afford for a gun right now, but for creating a one of a kind replica gun from scratch that's actually a pretty darn good deal. I know I'm getting off topic here, but would like to hear more about Polish gun builders (maybe the vendors and manufacturers forum) Anyone there interested in going into large production of muzzleloaders?FrancisPowers said:
Self defence carry?
- Thread starter francispowers
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
IowaShooter said:
I know. just commentating it is a fine looking single action revolver. No mind, cartridge or C&B. Nice looking. Methinks it could replace the void left in the market when Ruger stopped making the Old Army. Wish I had never sold mine.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Old Ford said:
I would still like to see this quantified.
From what little ballistics gel testing we have shows a ball from a belt revolver barely produces a caliber sized hole. It's slightly better than what we see with today's FMJ bullets. And this is with a standard length barrel.
According to my 2nd edition Lyman Handbook is shows a .36 Navy with a .375" ball over 30 grns of Pyrodex P (the most energetic powder tested) it achieves 942 fps with 156 ft/lbs of energy. A .44 cal revolver with a .451" ball and 35 grns (not exactly a full chamber) of P achieves 979 fps and 294 ft/lbs.
The Pietta pepperbox cylinder, according to DGW, is but 3" long with about 1/3 of it hanging beyond what was the cylinder of a standard Navy sized cylinder. 1" of barrel isn't sufficient to get much velocity and wouldn't even completely burn up a typical full charge (~30 grns of 3F).
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/inde...name/RH1050+1851+NAVY+YANK+PEPPERBOX+REVOLVER
Excluding a CNS shot the .44 ball would be more effective producing a larger permanent wound cavity. Of course an excellent shot, such as the one placed through Tutt, is quite effective and likely would have been even were it a .31 (but a good bit closer). A lung shot may or may not take a man eventually. And then again maybe not as I have had a pneumothorax (collapsed lung) twice and flabbergasted the doctors by my ability to behave normally (walk and talk) with most people requiring a wheelchair and barely whispering.
Of course all of this is dependent on the determination of the attacker, as well as their understanding and feeling from being shot.
Outside of a HP bullet there's not much else known to be as devastating as a wide meplat such as this:
That's a .457" cast ball with my 195 grn WFN bullet that's .460" long so as not to eat up precious powder capacity as well as assuming my Pietta NMA was coming with a slow 1:30" twist. On the right is my 170 grn version that's .400" long. My NMA loves both of these and shoots them equally as well as the ball with ~33 grns (weighed) 3F Olde E producing .45 ACP performance according to similar test results. This is its most accurate charge tested from 25 grns up.
The far left bullet is a modified version weighing 285 grns that I had Accurate Molds create for my ROA knowing it could easily accept the additional pressures created by the weight and longer bearing surfaces and is the infamous bullet Richard Eames enjoys bringing up as someone I sent bullets to decided to try it in his Walker over 52 grns of Pyrodex P which blew the chamber wide open.
Last edited by a moderator:
rodwha
58 Cal.
I forgot to point out again that our soldiers have shown the 9mm FMJ bullets are poor performers. Their permanent wound track isn't much smaller than what we see with a .36 cal ball, unlike the .45 ACP ball ammo that performs reasonably well.
And I also meant to give the results for what appears to be the Remington Pocket (3.5" barrel). With a .315" ball over 12 grns of P it achieved 906 fps and 86 ft/lbs. According to testing this could be increased by going to a larger ball with the assumption being that with such grossly undersized chambers the ball doesn't have enough to obturate completely.
http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html
And I also meant to give the results for what appears to be the Remington Pocket (3.5" barrel). With a .315" ball over 12 grns of P it achieved 906 fps and 86 ft/lbs. According to testing this could be increased by going to a larger ball with the assumption being that with such grossly undersized chambers the ball doesn't have enough to obturate completely.
http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html
Last edited by a moderator:
Pukka Bundook
54 Cal.
Interesting topic!
Rather academic for me up in Canada where we can't carry anything I don't think, bust still interesting.
FWIW, I have an old Queene Anne pistol , (with screw -off barrel) Made in about 1750 by a good London maker.
It's a 22 bore and takes an oversized lead ball in the breech which is swaged down on firing.
Interesting point of this pistol, is that it was converted to percussion probably when it was about 80 years old. This means it was still classed as a viable defense weapon at that time.
(Likely carried as one of a pair)
It takes 40 grains of powder in the chamber,under the .61 cal ball. They were known to be very powerful at the time. (I know it rips a real hole through a burning barrel!)
I just mention this as another slant on protective BP. arms, made in an age when Everyone able to afford, carried defense arms.
Cheers,
Richard.
Rather academic for me up in Canada where we can't carry anything I don't think, bust still interesting.
FWIW, I have an old Queene Anne pistol , (with screw -off barrel) Made in about 1750 by a good London maker.
It's a 22 bore and takes an oversized lead ball in the breech which is swaged down on firing.
Interesting point of this pistol, is that it was converted to percussion probably when it was about 80 years old. This means it was still classed as a viable defense weapon at that time.
(Likely carried as one of a pair)
It takes 40 grains of powder in the chamber,under the .61 cal ball. They were known to be very powerful at the time. (I know it rips a real hole through a burning barrel!)
I just mention this as another slant on protective BP. arms, made in an age when Everyone able to afford, carried defense arms.
Cheers,
Richard.
RedFeather
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Messages
- 1,307
- Reaction score
- 43
On the Starr revolvers, I dont know if it is the repro gun or the design, but those are said to have a less than stellar reputation for reliability. Plus they are full sized . Well, since you are "dead set" on something, I would suggest a proven piece like one of the small Colts. Buy the best maker you can afford, lest you meet yours. No pun intended. But do go over your laws, since it really starts, not ends, with a pull of the trigger. Best of luck to you and may you never have to use it.
Btw, where are you in Poland? My father's family is from Swietochlowice.
Btw, where are you in Poland? My father's family is from Swietochlowice.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 13,449
- Reaction score
- 7,855
A self defense carry piece is something pondered years ago before self-registration through gaining state permission for concealed carry became commonplace. A four shot larger caliber double action pepper box actually wouldn't be such a bad proposition.
Sometimes I keep my .54 caliber Aston horse pistol on the nightstand along with a flashlight for home defense.
A single, reliable and hard hitting shot and if that's not enough, the solid brass grip cap cap be used as a blunt instrument.
171 years young and still being put to good use.
A single, reliable and hard hitting shot and if that's not enough, the solid brass grip cap cap be used as a blunt instrument.
171 years young and still being put to good use.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 13,449
- Reaction score
- 7,855
Bet a brace of those cut down the numbers of coach jackings.
Seriously, would you really want to stare down a .54 caliber bore if you broke into the wrong apartment?
It is only one shot, but it's reliable and very powerful. I also have some other weapons at hand but no reason an old Aston horse pistol can't be used for home defense even today.
It is only one shot, but it's reliable and very powerful. I also have some other weapons at hand but no reason an old Aston horse pistol can't be used for home defense even today.
Pukka Bundook
54 Cal.
Smokey,
I still regret Not purchasing a short Rigby percussion, 4 " barrel and .73 calibre.
What a grand thing to have in a pocket!
You'd see the beady eye of that ball down there smiling at you, LOL!
I still regret Not purchasing a short Rigby percussion, 4 " barrel and .73 calibre.
What a grand thing to have in a pocket!
You'd see the beady eye of that ball down there smiling at you, LOL!
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2005
- Messages
- 8,030
- Reaction score
- 1,033
emphasis addedRJDH said:
would it be considered a 'bad joke' to put a smiley face on the ball? perhaps "smile - this one's for you"?
perhaps i haven't had enough sleep and my dark side peeks out...
Again, I would be thinking more along the lines of 20 grains of 3Fg, and two projectiles in each chamber, when using the Pietta pepperbox..., and at 5 yards or less. A lot of SD handgun encounters are at distances where the participants could touch fingertips. Figure too that you are going to need more than one shot fired to put the opponent down.
LD
Pukka Bundook
54 Cal.
Yes, a smiley on a nice yellow painted ball would do it!
Some old blunderbusses had "Happy is he that escapes me" printed around the muzzle, so dry humour is nothing new.
Nowadays, A Clint Eastwood quote might do on a 'buss, "Go ahead......"
Some old blunderbusses had "Happy is he that escapes me" printed around the muzzle, so dry humour is nothing new.
Nowadays, A Clint Eastwood quote might do on a 'buss, "Go ahead......"
How About an inscription on the edge of the muzzle done with a laser?
"Camera: Wait for Flash."
:rotf:
LD
"Camera: Wait for Flash."
:rotf:
LD
rodwha
58 Cal.
I'm not sure that would produce enough velocity to be all that effective. Look at the derringer used on Lincoln. Granted a head shot is pretty effective usually it didn't penetrate that far, and with a single ball it is going faster. And two balls at that distance wouldn't spread much at all so it's not like you'd get two distinct wound tracks. A single ball traveling much faster will create a wider permanent wound track as we see in the few ballistics gel results. But use a wide meplat conical and you get a more wicked wound.
Pukka Bundook
54 Cal.
I like it , Dave!
Pukka Bundook
54 Cal.
Quote;
" But use a wide meplat conical and you get a more wicked wound."
Especially if you load it upside down!
" But use a wide meplat conical and you get a more wicked wound."
Especially if you load it upside down!
rodwha
58 Cal.
As is my meplats run .375" or about 83%, but I'm considering modifying my design and reducing it to .355" or about 78% among a few other changes.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 13,449
- Reaction score
- 7,855
If I was limited to a percussion revolver...
Tested various molds in the .41
to see how nose design effected penetration.
The bullet weights are approximately the same.
The powder charges were all the same.
The penetration was hugely different.
op:
Tested various molds in the .41
to see how nose design effected penetration.
The bullet weights are approximately the same.
The powder charges were all the same.
The penetration was hugely different.
op:Similar threads
