Self defence carry?

[Pukka Bundook]

Good Cheer,
Of the above loads, which do you deem best?

Maybe the last one?
I ask, as results with a ball or conical in revolvers showed that a conical had much better penetration, but the ball caused more damage.

I have no idea what the projectiles were you used in the above, not knowing mould numbers.

Best regards,
Richard.

 

[rodwha]

I'd be curious how a more energetic powder would change those figures. Jack's Battle isn't a very powerful powder. Isn't it something like reenactor grade?

 

[nkbj]

This is my original load development chart with those three molds circled.

 

[nkbj]

The one at the top, the full wadcutter, may as well have been chunkin' a raw hush puppy. If your opponent wasn't wearing a coat it'd probably be a pretty good load.

 

[nkbj]

I'd be curious how a more energetic powder would change those figures. Jack's Battle isn't a very powerful powder. Isn't it something like reenactor grade?

When you pour it out next to FFFg...

Pretty sure it would pick up some oomph with 777.

 

[rodwha]

Didn't you also have a pic of the bullets you retrieved? No doubt many here would like to see them if you do.

 

[nkbj]

Looked in the file.
This picture is must be from that test.

The one in the middle (41028) still has the imprint from the loading ram intact on it's nose. But that wadcutter, it went kersplat.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Good Cheer,

As and when time permits, would it be possible to fire the same test with a ball?
It would complete the picture so to speak.

A ball was reckoned more damaging than the usual conical used at the time.
For a self defense, that wadcutter with a bit more oomph behind it looks a winner!

 

[nkbj]

Looking to get a ball mold for it.
As an aside, I ran some round ball versus semi-wadcutter samples in a 1858 Pietta .44 some years back. This is what it did.

Way it looks to me is that with percussion revolvers there's not much jiggle room to play with 'cause we're trading powder space for lead space. Like the best combo possible is maximizing your lead weight without reducing the powder column any more than necessary. But then the bullet needs to have a nose on it to penetrate and that means giving up powder column.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting test. Answers a lot of questions. Thanks for showing that.

 

[rodwha]

Not necessarily. My 195 grn WFN conical is just .460" giving up virtually nothing over a ball, or my 170 grn version that's just .400" allowing for a few more grains and likey to produce a higher velocity than a ball as the bearing surfaces add a bit more friction creating a slight delay in propulsion as well as a slightly higher pressure. I've sent out a handful of my projectiles for testing by those with similar powders as me (T7, Swiss, or Olde E), along with my more accurate charges to see just what they produce to several people.

Would be interesting to add a ball for comparison to see how it compares. One fellow found the same charge behind a Buffalo Ballette produced a higher velocity to a ball.

 

[nkbj]

Well, what I mean to say is that any length of bullet is a trade off with that loss of powder column.

Penetration and foot-pounds are of interest but not a goal to me when working with off the shelf molds. For me a percussion revolver is another revolver that I'm reloading for except that the variety of powders to choose from is pretty skimpy. However, I'm learning a lot about what makes 'em bark and bite. If I was going to depend upon a percussion revolver for protection I'd be after a load that'd punch through clothing and get to the meat of the matter.

The Nose
It'd need a semi-wadcutter front end to concentrate the bullets momentum into a reduced section and force an entry. A flat ended conical section would probably do that best.

The Body
No lube grooves because they're just a loss of lead. And the shortest bullet that would do the job would be just great.

The Base
In cross section I'd want something about like a 2:1 ellipse. Round ball has flat based bullets beat hands down for shot to shot accuracy unless alignment is meticulously preserved because that round hind end is the steering end of the bullet. I've pretty much figgered out how to do that but why not start out better to begin with? Any how, I think an elliptical cross section would give the benefits of round ball while being flattened a little bit to not crunch into the powder so soon.

But what all that means is a ball with a little bit of a hole puncher on it's front end. Would it be better than the military "conical" ball that was invented in the mid 1800's? Beats me. Maybe they tumbled after punching through a great coat, vest and shirt!

 

[rodwha]

A fellow on another forum who goes by Omnivore has been experimenting with bullet designs and had created a HP mold to try. These are a couple of his results:

Here we see his 225 grn WFN design modified to a HP:



And these are his results from his NMA and Walker:



I can't post the links to the bullet designs from Aacurate Molds as the forum deletes them. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of his 200 grn bullet.

I'll also see if I can dig up velocity measurements later. Forgot to look for that prior to posting.

Oh, and those are weighed powder charge results.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'm not sure that would produce enough velocity to be all that effective. Look at the derringer used on Lincoln

OK he used a .44. No idea if he used a max load or what load or what condition was the powder. Bullet weight if a round ball was probably 138 grains. Two patched ball at .350 is 130 grains, two at .375 would be 158 grains. NOT that much of a lead difference to quibble about at 15 feet. If they don't track different upon impact, you've lost nothing, if they do you may have better damage. :wink:

LD

 

[rodwha]

That's not even an accurate way to compare projectile weights. One took up precious powder room the other filled in the additional caliber mostly. Not even remotely similar as the double ball load is traveling quite slowly and won't penetrate anywhere near as much. And then there's the issue of permanent wound cavity, especially considering the bullet design and caliber difference, as well as the higher velocity.

 

[tenngun]

In the case of Lincoln he died from poor medical care. Brains are just the worlds best food for bacteria so without antibiotics Lincoln would have died of infection. However if they let Lincoln brain drain he would have survived until the infection got him.
A derringer is comparable to a pocket knife. Dangerous, possibly abel to kill I wouldn’t hazard my safety on one.

 

[rodwha]

Rereading his whole thread I see that his NMA can hold up to 30 grns of 3F with the longer (.550") bullet but that it's a bit difficult to seat. It's not clear if that is a max load in his walker, but seeing how a NMA/Army holds roughly 40 grns with a ball and a Walker holds 60 I'd venture to guess it is not a max load. I can inquire if you'd like to know.

What he did also provide was velocities. From his NMA and 200 grn bullet he got 890 fps with 359 ft/lbs and with the 219 grn HP he got 870 fps and 367 ft/lbs. And the Walker with the 200 grn bullet he got 1045 fps and 495 ft/lbs and with the 219 grn HP he got 1035 fps and 520 ft/lbs.

 

[rodwha]

Indeed. And that patched ball no doubt used a larger powder charge and still did not penetrate very deeply.

Just like the test of an '60 Army cylinder using 30 grns of 3F and a ball without a barrel showed 7 ft/lbs of energy. Not likely to do more than bring up a bruise. Granted the Pepperbox has an extra inch of barrel and would do better, but reducing the powder charge by adding another projectile?

 

[nkbj]

When thinking about how to make a load really dance, the bullet weights and powder charges we use are so small that a few more grains amounts to a healthy percentage. The +/- can add up and changes happen pretty quick.

 

[rodwha]

As well as usable barrel to both burn the powder and create the pressure.

According to Percussion Revolvers by Cumpston and Bates the Philadelphia derringer has 1.5” of rifled bore and using a .440 ball of 128 grns charged with 30 grns of 3F they got 419 fps with standard Goex which produces 50 ft/lbs, or with Swiss 579 fps and 95 ft/lbs. I’d prefer a .31 pocket to that.