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Shooting TWO patched balls?
- Thread starter Marc Adamchek
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I have to say I'd rather shoot one ball. And if its big enough it weighs as much as two of the smaller calibers. ;-)
My .662" shoots a 437 grain ball. That's almost two .530" /226 grain balls. ;-)
My .662" shoots a 437 grain ball. That's almost two .530" /226 grain balls. ;-)
Rat
50 Cal.
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I tried it back in the day, and didn't know about loading both balls at once. The second ball down will indeed compress air, and move back up the bore. I left the ram-rod in, for reasons I don't remember, after loading the second ball, (probably digging around looking for my caps)(didn't forget, knew it was still in the barrel) looked over and saw said ram-rod creeping back up/out of the barrel! The dude who loaded 400 grains of powder, and four or five balls, probably did not load them all at once, and some of them balls most likely moved back up the barrel. Once you got two balls down, that barrel would be sealed very tight, turning it into an air-compressor...or compressed air tank.
Anyhow, never saw a real good reason to do that, or that it was worth the time and extra fiddling with loading the rifle. ?? And if you really think a bear is coming to get you, do you want him to catch you while you are ramming another ball down the bore? And do you ram it down while the gun is primed or capped? And do you really think you can spot a bear, who is much lower to the ground and harder to see than a deer, way before he's on you?? Or if he's laying on a kill, and YOU walk up on HIM???? Yeah right.
On edible non-dangerous game, I'm not sure I'd want to tear up more meat with additional bullet holes. In a rifle, I don't think the reduced range would be a good trade off. Maybe a better concept in a smooth bore. ? Or a very small rifle such as a .40"...but then you reduce your range if it's not good out to 100+ yards.
Anyhow, never saw a real good reason to do that, or that it was worth the time and extra fiddling with loading the rifle. ?? And if you really think a bear is coming to get you, do you want him to catch you while you are ramming another ball down the bore? And do you ram it down while the gun is primed or capped? And do you really think you can spot a bear, who is much lower to the ground and harder to see than a deer, way before he's on you?? Or if he's laying on a kill, and YOU walk up on HIM???? Yeah right.
On edible non-dangerous game, I'm not sure I'd want to tear up more meat with additional bullet holes. In a rifle, I don't think the reduced range would be a good trade off. Maybe a better concept in a smooth bore. ? Or a very small rifle such as a .40"...but then you reduce your range if it's not good out to 100+ yards.
Ketchakah
40 Cal.
Why do we seem to think that more powder equates to more pressure ?
It is very well known that a ML will reach its peak pressure dependent on the length of barrel. That's what we do when we test powder loads. Anyone ever do the "Snow Test" ?
400 grains of powder only equates to 300 grains shot out on the ground. The powder is not in the barrel long enough to burn all that.
Now if we stop the barrel with multiple Ball, Yes, that would definitely change this dynamic. To what degree, i cannot say.
As for multiple ball, That's just the concept of Buckshot, size not withstanding. But true, the more ball weight or tighter the Ball load, the more pressure is required to push it out, and the more chance of a barrel issue. I am not qualified to do the math on this..
It is very well known that a ML will reach its peak pressure dependent on the length of barrel. That's what we do when we test powder loads. Anyone ever do the "Snow Test" ?
400 grains of powder only equates to 300 grains shot out on the ground. The powder is not in the barrel long enough to burn all that.
Now if we stop the barrel with multiple Ball, Yes, that would definitely change this dynamic. To what degree, i cannot say.
As for multiple ball, That's just the concept of Buckshot, size not withstanding. But true, the more ball weight or tighter the Ball load, the more pressure is required to push it out, and the more chance of a barrel issue. I am not qualified to do the math on this..
I guess, because more powder under the same projectile makes more pressure.
All of the data in the LYMAN BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL clearly shows larger powder loads make more breech pressure to be the case.
Take for example the data for a 28 inch long, .50 caliber, 1:48 twist barrel loaded with GOEX 3Fg powder under a patched .490 diameter, 177 gr. roundball:
40 grain = 3800 psi, 50 grain = 5700 psi, 60 grain = 7500 psi, 70 grain = 8500 psi, 80 grain = 9500 psi, 90 grain = 9900 psi, 100 grain = 10200 psi, 110 grain = 10300 psi, 120 grain = 10800 psi.
Going on with the Lyman data, here are the pressures in the same barrel when it is loaded with GOEX 2Fg powder under a 350 gr. Buffalo HP Conical. (Note, this is about twice the weight of the roundball mentioned above):
40 grain = 6800 psi, 50 grain = 9700 psi, 60 grain = 10800 psi, 70 grain = 11200 psi, 80 grain = 11700 psi, 90 grain = 11900 psi, 100 grain = 12100spi, 110 grain = 12900 psi, 120 grain = 13800 psi.
For what it's worth, the largest powder loads show what your talking about, that being, the larger loads can't burn all of the powder in the barrel so the increase in pressure is a little less than the increases shown in the lower powder loads but, there's no denying, larger powder loads do result in higher breech pressures.
Rockvillerich
Pilgrim
Jerry Cunningham wrote 'Destruction of Muzzle Loading Rifle Barrels' in the 1970's while he was working with one of the larger barrel makers, and if I remember correctly he was never able to burst a barrel with all sorts of crazy loads, and various obstructions. 24,000 psi was about the highest pressure black powder makes, and it was the smaller caliber barrels that had issues. I'll see if I can find my copy of it...
Because it does. That black on the snow is more burned detritus than unburned black powder.
RHensley
Pilgrim
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I've read here where some folks use way over 100 grains black powder in some rifles. I just read in the Rice barrel co. on the internet that they do not suggest over 100 grains of any black powder in there barrels. I believe that there 62 cal. was max. at 100 grains of 2X. I thought I might enter this into the conversation. Rice barrel co. has a chart of there min-max load chart if anyone is interested.
Rockvillerich
Pilgrim
Modern steel barrels will safely handle black powder pressures with a properly seated projectile, and the limits become what will burn in the barrel before the bullet leaves the muzzle, and how much recoil you're willing to tolerate. Why would you want to burn munch more than 100 grains anyway? Hunting brown bear with a 430 grain .58 heavy skirted mini-ball? Recommended limits are to make the lawyers happy. Interestingly, the only actual burst barrels I've ever encountered were from extremely hot blank loads where the powder was not wadded, and had spread out from a re-enactor falling prior to firing. I know of this happening twice in forty years.
Ketchakah
40 Cal.
Well thats very interesting. As i have laid a tarp down and done this test. Recollected the dropped powder and fired another ball with it.
Seems all you wish to do is argue. I will not argue. I state only proven fact. I will not comment on your posts from this time forward as you seem to think you know everything there is. If it massages your ego to think you are the know-everything. Have at it.
You may have more fun if you drop the ego BS and attempt to build a relationship where you may actually learn something new.
Have a great life.
Logcutter
40 Cal
One PRB has always been enough for me. I can see where it might be of use from a military prospective, but for hunting I don't see where I would gain.
I'm guessing the decay in the incremental increase pressures is the patch failing, and the loss of the seal ?
Zonie - Comparing that 40-grn charge to the 3X that charge of 120-grns, the pressure of the 120 load is ~95% of the 3X load.
I’m surprised it is that linear a progression, but being an explosive ... and not a progressively burning powdah, maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
I’m surprised it is that linear a progression, but being an explosive ... and not a progressively burning powdah, maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
You didn't any chance make a video of that, did you? That's the sort of thing where "seeing is believing".
Spence
"Because it does. That black on the snow is more burned detritus than ""unburned black powder""
"Well thats very interesting. As i have laid a tarp down and done this test. Recollected the dropped powder and fired another ball with it."
"Seems all you wish to do is argue. I will not argue. I state only proven fact. I will not comment on your posts from this time forward as you seem to think you know everything there is. If it massages your ego to think you are the know-everything. Have at it."
Interesting, you both say the same thing, unburned powder is in front of the barrel.
Paul V. said the same thing years ago and it was argued then.
Kind of like pouring sugar into unsweetened tea, after you add so much sugar, only so much will do into solution, the remaining sugar goes to the bottom of the glass.
Point of diminishing returns.
"Well thats very interesting. As i have laid a tarp down and done this test. Recollected the dropped powder and fired another ball with it."
"Seems all you wish to do is argue. I will not argue. I state only proven fact. I will not comment on your posts from this time forward as you seem to think you know everything there is. If it massages your ego to think you are the know-everything. Have at it."
Interesting, you both say the same thing, unburned powder is in front of the barrel.
Paul V. said the same thing years ago and it was argued then.
Kind of like pouring sugar into unsweetened tea, after you add so much sugar, only so much will do into solution, the remaining sugar goes to the bottom of the glass.
Point of diminishing returns.
bradly_tx
40 Cal
Well I just throw my opinion in based on my experience. I hunt solely with a 32cal, mostly squirrel here in deep East Texas. And I double ball quite often when I come across a hog or deer. At 30 yards The balls are no further than 1 inch apart. I have a freezer full of squirrels, hogs, and dear to back it up. It works for me. Your mileage may vary, good hunting.
Ketchakah
40 Cal.
I did not Spence. This was before i could get home Video tape. Super 8 film was the thing. It really never occurred to me.
Might be a good YouTube experiment.
Might be a good YouTube experiment.
Bradly, Care to share your loading sequence ? Both Patched?
Rat
50 Cal.
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I don't doubt that at close range, and small caliber, it works fine. My only problem is at longer range, trading off accuracy. ??? I don't think anyone has mentioned accuracy results, and the spread between balls at 100 yards. ?? Or did I miss it?
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