Shooting without shot or ball?

[ill Mendham]

Is shooting a flintlock with a load of blackpowder but no load of shot or ball safe? If so, what is the safe way to do this. All help for this .17 cal newbie is appreciated.

 

[guncobbler]

Ill - Re-enactors do it all the time. Pour the powder down and don't point the muzzle down until after you fire it. Make sure you don't point your gun at anything you done want to destroy or kill. You can kill people with just the powder. If you want your gun to make a good crack put some wadding down after the powder. 1/4 to 1/2 inch should do just fine. No need for more. That said wads are dangerous too. If you put wads down make sure they are seated firmly on the powder. Otherwise you have a dangerous condition that can bulge a barrel or worse. Be careful out there but do have fun. GC

 

[Ivery Keys]

Guncobbler said it all pretty much, I want to reiterate that BP alone can still kill out to about 20 feet or so. Mounted shooters burst balloons off horses shooting BP blanks with nothing else in them and the BP grains will penetrate card board up close and break balloons out to about 15 feet...

Be safe,

Ivery

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Ill - Re-enactors do it all the time. Pour the powder down and don't point the muzzle down until after you fire it. Make sure you don't point your gun at anything you done want to destroy or kill. You can kill people with just the powder. If you want your gun to make a good crack put some wadding down after the powder. 1/4 to 1/2 inch should do just fine.

Hi guncobbler,

I do it all the time with my .50 cal Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle at reenactments. I'll typically arrive with about 70-100 home-wrapped cartridges with 90 gr. of FFFg in each. I carry 27 in my cartridge box and will put a few more in my haversack for a reenactment battle (run out of cartridges and you have to become a casualty of the battle).

To use it, you tear off the top of the cartridge with your teeth, prime the pan, and then dump the rest down the barrel. We're not allowed to put the paper down the barrel because it burning pieces of paper will float to the ground after the shot - it's a fire hazard.

Nor or we allowed to use a ramrod during one of these because it would make a great projectile if the gun discharged (remember the pan is already primed). Nonetheless, without stuffing the paper in there, my rifle is LOUD! The larger caliber muskets (.62 and .75 caliber) will sometimes make a whooshing sound, but my .50 cal is plenty loud without the paper rammed in on top.

No question, the paper makes it louder, just watch for burning pieces if you choose to use it. One nice thing about putting the paper in is that you don't have to worry about keeping the barrel up to keep the powder in.

Shooting blanks won't hurt it a bit, just be sure to clean it real well when you're done for the day.

 

[robinghewitt]

You can kill people with just the powder.

How do you do that then? Insert the muzzle into a bodily orifice? Dislodge some heavy object that falls on their head perhaps?

 

[MikeChapin]

You can kill people with just the powder.

How do you do that then? Insert the muzzle into a bodily orifice? Dislodge some heavy object that falls on their head perhaps?

It's all great fun until someone puts an eye out.

Seriously I cannot see where loose power can kill but anyone who has been on the recieving end of a touchhole blast will tell you that even that little bit can be very painful. A loose powder blast will cause third degree burns and imbed a lot of nasty stuff. The eastern indians used to use loose charges to torture victims while they roasted.

The real danger is anything else that is in the barrel. Wadding, or bits of paper will penetrate up to about 20 feet. Every once in a while you hear a story about someone screwing around with blanks killing someone. It happened to some hollywood up and commer about ten or fifteen years ago.

 

[musketman]

You can kill people with just the powder.

How do you do that then? Insert the muzzle into a bodily orifice? Dislodge some heavy object that falls on their head perhaps?

I think it could be the concussion (shock wave) of the explosion that causes death at close range...

 

[Stumpkiller]

You can kill people with just the powder.

How do you do that then? Insert the muzzle into a bodily orifice? Dislodge some heavy object that falls on their head perhaps?

'Cause when you're close behind me and shoot and happen to pop my eardrum, blow my hat off and set my hair on fire, I'm going to show you why the buttplate is so heavy on military firelocks.

:winking:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

You can kill people with just the powder.

How do you do that then? Insert the muzzle into a bodily orifice? Dislodge some heavy object that falls on their head perhaps?

I think it could be the concussion (shock wave) of the explosion that causes death at close range...

A friend and I did some experiments with "blanks", with loaded rounds, brass rimfire and centerfire, shotshells, and muzzleloading--all at very close ranges to paper targets and also against plywood/OSB.

If using a true "blank cartridge", i.e. one that is star-crimped or roll-crimped over a hard cardboard wad--there is definitely a "shock wave" that will literally shred a paper target at very close range. We found that there are very fine "sparkles"--pieces of burning powder--that embed into the plywood at close range when shooting a blank Black Powder charge with no paper, bullet, or wadding. I wonder if it is these burnng particles that are actually popping the balloon targets?

I centrailly I know what a concussion feels like, as I VERY recently took a header and almost knocked what little brains I have left out of my head. So the shock wave theory appears to be a valid reason for it. It has to be--cause the actual energy imparted by a bullet is not all that great usually.

DO NOT "play" with blanks. They are extremely dangerous and CAN injure severely or kill...

 

[mike alexandre]

Talking of experiments , we did some trials with both cannon and musket with the idea of knowing exactly what was required for blank fireing and crowd control.
We fired a cannon several times at a target made of white newspaper sheet 5 yds wide by 2 yds high from 10 yds. We put a sheet of paper on the ground in front of the cannon. The experiment was repeated with a musket with 100g of FF and a paper wad on top.
Nothing reached the target from the cannon which was loaded with 3 ounces of powder wrapped in aluminium foil, nothing landed on the sheet in front. A shock wave did hit and ruffled or tore the paper in places but not enough to need more than a few staples to put the target back.
Nothing hit the target from 10 yds from the musket.
So the answer is do your own tests and you may be surprised as to how much is fact and what is pure fiction.

 

[recycle33952]

I agree with the poster talking of fiction. I too have expermented with blanks and effects of. The only conclusion I come up with the muzzle has to be very very close to cause damage. example blank loads shot at paper at 10 paces notta, 10 feet small effect you can do more throwing a icecream cone at it. no hold the muzzle 2-3 inches from a piece of plywood? it will make a nasty mess throw slivers all about. keep in mind shotgun blanks have wads and shot cups but I cant see those being terminal since cops routinely shoot rubber balls and bean bags full of shot out of 12 gauges with no terminal results other than beating the stuffing from them. On the otherhand blanks like sweedish 6.5 x55 cartridge blanks have a wooden plug or bullet I have heard those have killed people but dont know for sure but That makes sense,. so I say myth busted

 

[robinghewitt]

'Cause when you're close behind me and shoot and happen to pop my eardrum, blow my hat off and set my hair on fire,

Mental note: If likely to set Stumpy's hair on fire, add buckshot :crackup:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Talking of experiments , we did some trials with both cannon and musket with the idea of knowing exactly what was required for blank fireing and crowd control.
We fired a cannon several times at a target made of white newspaper sheet 5 yds wide by 2 yds high from 10 yds. We put a sheet of paper on the ground in front of the cannon. The experiment was repeated with a musket with 100g of FF and a paper wad on top.
Nothing reached the target from the cannon which was loaded with 3 ounces of powder wrapped in aluminium foil, nothing landed on the sheet in front. A shock wave did hit and ruffled or tore the paper in places but not enough to need more than a few staples to put the target back.
Nothing hit the target from 10 yds from the musket.
So the answer is do your own tests and you may be surprised as to how much is fact and what is pure fiction.

Hmmm....I participated in the Fort Ticonderoga Rev War battle reenactment in 2004 and instead of taking our company's normal ranger positions, we joined in the line with Herrick's Regiment. The Ticonderoga Grand Encampment has a reputation for artillery participation and this was no exception. As a safety measure, you are never supposed to move within a 60

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Shot more parade loads than I care to admit, posts from others sums it up as to the how.

 

[mike alexandre]

Twisted. You are quite correct, I've got caught a little to far up the barrel of my own cannon(not in front) and I would say 60 deg is probably a bit conservative when it comes to shock wave. Our tests were specificly about debris - noise and shock wave are certainly to be considered.

 

[ill Mendham]

:thanks: Everyone!

Shot the Brown Bess. My first time ever shooting blackpowder! So much fun! So thanks again for the guidance.

I was being pretty conservative with the loads. Started with 60 grains went to 65. Anyone know what a safe load is if you are not shooting ball (Parade ROund?)? I have a Brown Bess from Middlesex Village.

Also, the report was more of a whoosh most of the time. Is this because of a low powder load? Because I didn't use "wadding"? If so, what can I use for wadding?

:hatsoff:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

:thanks: Everyone!

Shot the Brown Bess. My first time ever shooting blackpowder! So much fun! So thanks again for the guidance.

I was being pretty conservative with the loads. Started with 60 grains went to 65. Anyone know what a safe load is if you are not shooting ball (Parade ROund?)? I have a Brown Bess from Middlesex Village.

Also, the report was more of a whoosh most of the time. Is this because of a low powder load? Because I didn't use "wadding"? If so, what can I use for wadding?

:hatsoff:

Hi Ill,

Pretty typically when reenactors roll their blank cartridges they are rolling paper cartridges that contain anywhere from 90 to 100 grs. of black powder. For reenactment, and because you have to prime the pan with the same powder you're pouring down the pipe, it's usually FFFg. The unit I belonged to in Vermont actually bought some cannon powder that was the equivalent of 3Fg without the polishing of the grains. When bought in a plastic 50lb. bulk bag it came to about $7 or $8 a pound. Probably wouldn't use it for hunting, but it's great for blanks.

The FFFg will help get away from the whoosh sound because it burns more quickly than the FFg. Although I wouldn't use the FFFg behind a patched ball in that .75 cal. Bess (because of the faster and higher peak in pressure compared to the FFg), in a blank load with no packing the 3Fg makes a louder sound. If you can safely use packing where you're shooting blanks, just pour the powder down the barrel and then stuff the paper in after it. Of course, you'll need to ram it down on the powder. Don't do this around dry grass or other flammable materials because the smoldering paper from the blank can catch things on fire.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ivery Keys]

Sorry, guys, I have been away for awile. It looks like someone was questioning my statement that blanks can kill. Seems like some guy named Freddie Prinz killed himself with a blank. Now granted it was not a BP blank, but as stated above the concussion is what killed him. Think it can't hurt you? How many of us have carried BP particles under our skin for some stupid thing we did when we were younger that we shouldn't have. Although I have never killed anyone with a blank load, and have never seen anyone die from one I still say it can happen under any given unfortunate circumstances. I am just too old these days to care to experiment with such things...

Be safe anyway,

Ivery

 

[weirdjack]

I believe Freddie Prinze Sr died as a result of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It was eventually ruled an "accidental shooting due to the influence of Quaaludes". I don't recall nor see any mention anywhere that he used a blank in his gun. He pulled a gun from the sofa and shot himself in front of his friend. He was both high and dispondent at the time.
Perhaps you are thinking of Brandon Lee? Bruce Lee's son, who died accidentally during the filming of The Crow. The gun was supposed to be firing a blank, but there was a mistake made; "Unfortunately, a fragment of a dummy bullet, used earlier in close-up shots, was lodged in the barrel, and the blank charge propelled the fragment into Lee's side, fatally wounding him."
The blank charge didn't wound him, the projectile that was left in the barrel by mistake did.
That said, I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a really close blank charge of BP from the bore of a Bess.
Jack

 

[PvtC]

The horrific accounts of the torture of William Crawford by the Ohio Indians following the Gnadenhutten massacre include the discharging of powder only loads into the sensitive parts of his body. :shocking: