Shredded Patches?

[wirehairman]

I went out and did a little shooting today. Based upon things I've read in the forum, I spent the extra time to find my patches but don't like what I found. They are basically getting shredded.

I'm shooting a .50 caliber GPR with a .490" Speer round ball, a .015" T/C pre-lubed cotton patch, and 80 grains of Triple 7 FFFg. I cannot thumb start the ball but don't have to apply a lot of pressure to the short starter either. I swab between shots with a bore butter patch.

Any ideas on the patches and what I need to do?

 

[sagebrush2401]

To start with try FFg. FFFg maybe burning to fast.

Good Luck

 

[john12865]

In my opinion ,your blowing the patches and they are burning. 80 grs of fffg is a stiff load. I shoot Goex BP FFG at 70 grs and don't get anything that looks like those patches. Mine are in such good shape that you could fire them again if you had to. I don't know if it's the lube you use or if the patches are dried out. Try backing your load down to 65 or 70 grs and see what they look like.

 

[dallas10c]

I had a few that looked like that the other day when I used 80 grains FFg Goex and a .490 Hornady ball with a prelubed .010 patch. When I backed the load down to 50 grain of BP they weren't as bad but I got reccomendations from the board to try .015 or .018 patches. I ordered some and will post the results hopefully next week.

Bob

 

[BLAHMAN]

I would do two things:

1) Scrub the barrel with some steel wool and......


2) use a load of ffg.

I've seen where a GPR, shot previously, had a bore as rough as a cobb and when stroked with a polishing agent (like steel wool) the gun improved in accuracy and the patches weren't shredded....

just my two cents!

 

[roundball]

That's a pretty hot powder charge even for a .015" patch...I use Oxyoke prelubed wonderwads over any 3F powder charge up in that range as a firewall to protect the patch.

Lacking any of those, just to show yourself that the firewall will work, next time you shoot, seat a spare patch down on the powder first.

I poke a spare patch into the muzzle using anything small that's handy like a pen or a screwdriver tip, etc...so the excess material puckers up around the edges as it's pushed in past the muzzle, and that right where you want the extra material...around the walls of the bore.

Seat it down, then seat your patched ball down on top of it...you'll be blowing two patches out of the bore then but they'll both be good and you can reuse them as the firewalls for future shots.

But long term, prelubed wads are simpler and put more lube into the bore, increase the gas seal, tighten groups, etc...they're not cheap but you don't need them for 50grn target loads, only when you get on up there around 80+ grns of 3F in a smaller bore like a .45/.50, plain cotton patches usually need some protection

 

[CoyoteJoe]

To start with try FFg. FFFg maybe burning to fast.

Good Luck

and a thicker patch that won't blow

 

[ffffg]

the ball holes that are up and down are from inconsistent wiping. for serious target work wipe very clean.. the ones left to right are the wind.. looks like a good shooting gun to me.. use more lube, tighter, thicker tight weave patch,......count the lines per inch with magnifying glass next to a tape measure.. should have 30-36 lines per inch if good stuff. that would be 4 lines per 1/8 inch.. track of the wolf has some very good .020 fine thread patch material, but your have to pay for it.. i just counted and its 32 lines per inch.. wall mart pillow ticking has totally degraded in thread count in the last years.. ok for broke in guns with average loads, but new guns hot loads, no.. the ticking they sell would have had problems with the gov't in the years past.. those durn feathers would be pokin thru youknow.. . ....... ive seen those prelubed patches get totally dried out setting in the store for years... try some different lubes.. if cold weather, tc lube is fine, but add more if load is heavy,... the last good group i shot, i used napa water solubable oil without the water.. it was below freezing, and i daubed it on the patch pretty good.. worked fine.. above freezeing there are dozens of lubes, home remedies etc.. they are fun to try.. in warm weather i use pure neatsfoot oil,... .your groups may degrade if your getting leading from the blown patches,.... after youve shot a bit and cleaned the gun each time it will come out when youv stoped blowing pathces.. my .62 took over a year to stop blowing pathes.. and the .020 tight weave pathces presoaked for a day or so at home did the trick, after some serious steel wooling.. be carefull of the muzzel. do the muzzel but keep the rod strait and oil the steel wool well.. do it once in a while between shoots till it comes around.. dont over do it.. .. dave..

 

[Herb]

Hodgdon used .020 Ox-Yoke patches in their Triple 7 loads listed in their book, "Hodgdon Basic Muzzleloading Manual". You need a heavier patch, but you probably also need an over powder wad, as others said. They list a .490 patched roundball and 80 grains of Triple 7 FFFG making 1873 fps. In their "helpful tips" they say "If you encounter poor accuracy while shooting patched round balls, inspect fired patches. If patches are frayed or torn, reduce powder charge until patches are left intact, or change patch material, or use a felt wad betwen the patched ball and the powder charge."

 

[ss1]

I ran a test [caught each patch fired] 50cal, t/c 1/48. .490, .495 hor. .015, .018, t/c patches. 777 powder. Shot all the combinitions. Patch start tearing at 40gr. Increasing patch size will allow 5gr increase. wonderwads +5gr, card over pw + 5gr. 2f to 3f decrease 5-7gr. .020tef +5gr. Shot over 1000 rn. Best accuary with 777, about 30 -35 gr. also ran test with pyro RS select, & P, a litter better. Now trying Gotex 3g in 40cal. 777 sure cleans up nice, compaired to gotex. If I could get the accury with 777 or pyro, that I hope to get with Gotex, I would still be using it. A longer barrel allowed for a 10gr + with out tearing up patch. Best I could get @ 50yds, 5 shot 2 - 2 1/2" WIPED AND BRUSHED. forgot, .010's would catch on fire @ about 50 - 60 gr 777.

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings wire hair,

the following is a 'grampaisum'. no doubt the flack will be forthcoming :yakyak:.

some of your patchs' look like they were punched thru from the front. by that i mean, when a patched ball is tite getting started, it gets 'whacked' with a short starter. the ball is punched partly thru or all the way thru the patch. so now you push a punched patch down the bore.. didn't it go down easy?? :hmm:

if you think about where the forces are on a tite muzzle ball, it's easy to see how a patch could get stretched or ripped. especially by the 1/2 starter. then the 6" starter would push the 'stretched' patch and ball easier cause the patch is much thinner on the side of the ball.

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[xxgrampa]

PS,, no burn ever leaves shreds or threads on a patch like that. a burn leaves a semi-even edge..

tt.g

 

[rabbit03]

Hello Wirehairman,

Your patches are burnt no doubt about it! So first things first!

You need to make sure your using a good patch material (one that you can not see any daylight at all through when held up to the sun) for starters. Then I would make sure it is of at least .018-.020 thickness also.

Then I would definitely try a larger sized ball, at least .495 and if possible get a bore sized .500.

And after you take care of the sealing problem, and only, then can you start to take care of the accuracy issues with the ranges and types of powder used.

Good luck

rabbit03

 

[paulvallandigham]

By now, you have figured out that you are burning patches. That Triple 7 burns HOTTER than black powder. You have to understand and believe that.

That is the reason we don't recommend using the substitute powders, as they create more problems than they solve.

BUY BLACK POWDER for your rifle. Order if from Powder Inc, or Graf and Son, if you can't find it locally. Or stock up when you got to Friendship each year. You are a member, aren't you?

Considering that you are paying almost twice what it will cost for a pound of black powder, it would seem to be a no brainer.

For now, because you are using that Triple 7, use an over powder wad to protect the Patch from being burned, or blown through. Your groups should be much smaller, but may hit a little higher on the target with the same sight setting and hold. The over powder wad also seals in the gases, so it doesn't blow by and reduce your velocity. Lower velocity generally relates to a lower point of impact on the target.

 

[Mad Monk]

Paul is correct when he states that 777 burns hotter than BP. The basis for the 777 formula is a dinitro compound. Fast and hot. The use of 80 grains of 3F 777 is pushing things in a .50 caliber.

I have pushed my .50 GPR to 2050 fps with Swiss 2F powder and kept the .018" #40 cotton drill patches intact. But with 777 they end up all shredded. Swiss is the hottest burning brand of black powder.

 

[wirehairman]

Thanks for all the replies.

I plan to try FFg, a wad over the FFFg load, and "better" patches. I'm guessing I would get the "push through" grampa described with a larger ball or thicker patches based upon the fit of the .490" ball and .015" patch (cannot thumb start but loads with minimal pressure on the short starter).

I am also interested in using the steel wool to buff my barrel but am nervous about screwing up my gun. Do any of you know of an article or another thread with more detailed instructions?

As for the load I'm using, based upon an article I read on finding the optimum powder charge, I fired three shot groups at a target 25 yards away before I ever sited the gun in. The first group started at the minimum recommended powder charge, and each successive group moved up by 5 grains until I reached the recommended maximum load. 80 grains gave me the best group by far, so I have been using it. Is there a better way to determine the optimum charge?

I also plan to look into real BP. I cannot buy it locally but will start exploring options to order it. Unfortunately, Friendship is more than a quick jaunt for me.

I will keep posting my results, so y'all can help this greenhorn along. Thanks again.

 

[roundball]

First things first for troubleshooting:

1) Shoot a few shots with only 40grns of powder...if you're patches still shred you'll know it's not being caused by excessive fire/pressure.

2) Then jack your charge back up but this time use a spare patch over the powder as a firewall for those shots...a double check to see if fire/pressure was causing the shredding.

If you no longer get shredded patches in either of those tests, you'll know immediately that the barrel itself is not doing it and that the patches are not tearing at short start time.

 

[FTW]

60 grs. of 2f 777 is all you can use without burning the patches up in a .50.More than 60 grs. will need a wad or a cheap alternative to them expensive wonder wads is 20 grs. corn meal or cream of wheat.I had no luck with prelubed patches,TC or ox-yoke.I use .020 patches with hoppes #9 plus.Even with goex there is no need to wipe between shots.

 

[bpbrs]

80 gr of T7 3f is like shooting 120 gr BP

drop the load down to 65 gr T7 and you will be happy.

 

[wirehairman]

First things first for troubleshooting:

1) Shoot a few shots with only 40grns of powder...if you're patches still shred you'll know it's not being caused by excessive fire/pressure.

2) Then jack your charge back up but this time use a spare patch over the powder as a firewall for those shots...a double check to see if fire/pressure was causing the shredding.

If you no longer get shredded patches in either of those tests, you'll know immediately that the barrel itself is not doing it and that the patches are not tearing at short start time.

Makes sense, roundball. I will try these two steps first to try and isolate the cause of the problem. :thumbsup: