Shredded Patches?

[rabbit03]

I would start with about 50 or so strokes. On about the fifth or so stroke make it come all the way out. I always make sure to use the rod guide during this too so you don't damage the crown.

For ease in doing this I will just chuck the barel in my vise (protecting the barrel of course) and this make for a stble platform. The cleanig patch and steel wool over the jag should be tight enough that you have to really bump it in using the palm of your hand on the cleaning rod. By the way I use a steel cleaning rod to do all of this, I would advise against using the wood ramrod for this and would prefer something alot more sturdier and less likely to break.

I will usually go in and almost out, within a couple of inches of the muzzle, and on the fifth or so in and out I will remove it all the way out, so your not forgetting to polish the last couple of inches also. I have always heard that having a choke in the end of the barrel is a good thing so if you are only doing that last part 1/5 of the time you will sort of end up with it that way. You will not be taking any real measurable amount of metal out by usuing the Brasso and 0000 steel wool but polishing it more than anything. Some might argue with wheather or not there is a choke after all this but it makes ME feel good and I can not argue with the results. Neither can anyone else!

rabbit03

 

[wirehairman]

Thanks, rabbit. I will pick up some Brasso and give it a go this week.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't worry about over doing it. Steel wool is softer steel than what is used in your barrel. What it does is take off the burrs on the edges of the lands of the rifling, so they no longer are there to cut your cloth patching material. Burrs are the result of cutting, but not bothering to lap or polish the barrel after the grooves are cut. The expensive privately made barrels, and barrels made by small barrel making concerns are lapped, and smoothed before they go out the door. That is why you pay extra money for them. The commercial barrel makers skip that step to meet the volume order requirements. The manufacturers accept this practice because they can acquire a high volume of barrels at a lower cost, keep the price for the gun down, and still make a good profit. Only the end user- YOU - gets short changed. But that is the difference between commercially made guns and those made by small builders using more expensive barrels. The barrels may not shoot any better than the commercial barrels do, but you don't have to deal with the aggravation of burrs cutting patches.

Use a bronze bore brush, and just wrap a thin layer of steel wool around the bore brush. The polisht The neck out of that barrel. dump all the junk out of the barrel periodically, and put more steel wool around the brush, and repeat the process until the bore feels smoother.

Then pour out whatever crud is in the barrel, wet a patch with spit or a little water, and run it down the barrel to catch and remove all the minute steel bits that will be clining to the barrel because of static electricity. ( The spit neutralizes the static electricity.) Do this a couple of times until the patch comes out clean.

Now, take a clean dry patch, and run that down the barrel on a jag, and go slowly so your fingertips can feel the lands and grooves of the barrel. If the barrel is smooth, and has no more burrs, the clean patch in a clean barrel should go down easily all the way to the breech, and back out again. If it stops or you feel a tight spot, pull the dry patch back out of the gun. Go back to polishing with the bronze brush and steel wool. Then repeat the process.

Ultimately, you want a dry patch to go down that barrel and back out again without hanging up on anything. When you reach that point, you are donw polishing. Put a little oil on another patch, and slowly run it down the barrel. It should feel like rubbing oil on a baby's bottom. Now that barrel is ready to shoot.

 

[rabbit03]

Paul has good things to say here. I use the brass jag with the cleaning patch to create a cushion effect between the 0000 steel wool and the barrel. And the cleaning patch under the steel wool also holds the brasso alot more right at the steel wool. Just my thing, but like I said , you can't argue with the results. :thumbsup:

rabbit03

 

[wirehairman]

Ok fellas, I polished my barrel with the steel wool this past week following the advice posted here, and the polishing seemed to work real well. I can run a patch down the barrel as smooth as can be.

I had a chance to give it a go today and shot four shots with 40 and 80 grains each. The four patches with 40 grains look almost reusable. Two of the 80 grain patches look the same, and the other two show signs of burn-through. However, they are the classic signs I have seen pictures of and would expect versus the complete shredding of the patch. So far, so good.

Here's the real puzzler, though. After polishing my barrel, my gun is a bear to load. I used to be able to start a PRB with a moderate tap on the short starter and run it down the barrel until it seated with moderate, steady pressure. Now, I really have to reef on the short starter to get it going and can only run it down the barrel by tamping it with the rod. I was using new patches, .015" Bridgers Best, lubed with Hoppes No. 9 BP so tried some of the .015" T/C pre-lubed patches I had been using and got the same results.

What the heck did I do to my barrel?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Until you put a micrometer to the patches, we could only guess what has changed. Measure them, every time you buy them. What the dealer says is .015 may not be so.

Normallyk, polishing the bore should make it easier to seat the ball. Are you using a different diameter ball? Like a .535, instead of a .530, or a .495, instead of a .490, etc. ???? Have you always used those lubes, or is this something different, too?

 

[wirehairman]

I also thought polishing the bore would make it easier to seat the ball so am a bit nervous that I screwed up my barrel somehow. I was shooting the same Speer .490" balls that I have been using, but the patches were new. I had a few of my old patches so tried them but had the same difficulty starting and loading the PRB.

Any ideas?

By the way, I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I got into muzzleloading on my own and have not found any local sources of info yet. You guys have been an invaluable resource.

 

[rabbit03]

Sounds like either one of three things perhaps.

1) did you load your lubed patches after the Hoppes, if so then you may have taken some of the lubricant out of the barrel with it. However I am only familiar with the Hoppes used in cleaning guns and not of this black powder lube. Is this a lube or a solvent type?

2) Check the roundball size if you can and make sure they are the same

3) Check the patches also make sure they are the same thickness as the old ones you were using.

Sounds as if you changed several things at once, you polished the barrel, changed lube, and used a different patch. When you change things try and do it just one at a time so you don't have so many variables to try and deal with.

I would think that there is no reason that your load should go down harder unless because of the polishing you created more bearing surface (smoother) and therefor have more resistance. But I highly doubt that is the case and that one of the other variables have caused this to happen.

Could the Hoppes have degreased your barrel?

I know when I load the first round down the barrel it is pretty stiff to load all the way down but that is because the barrel has been thouroughly cleaned of oil. Then after I shoot once and then wipe between shots it keeps the foling a little moist and makes loading easier. We also encounter this problem if we are shooting in very hot and dry conditions. The fouling in the barrel does not want to stay moist untill you can get another patched ball down it. Are you wiping between shots? If not then that is most likely your problem. The fouling could be getting hard due to the dry and hot conditions set up in the barrel with the heat of the previous round. Just a thought.

And what did you use on the 0000 steel wool as a polishing liquid?

Let us know what you find out

rabbit03

 

[FASTFRED]

Those precut patches can be difficult to load centered on the bore...Since the cutting/burn seem to be towards one side/offcenter most of the time, believe you may need to be more carefull when peg starting or peg/short starting to center the patch/ball combo and be SURE it starts/enters centered...You'll never have this type of problem if you cut the patches on the muzzle...

Also suggest you take a close look at you muzzle crown...Sharp lands and/or a poor crown will tear the patch on loading giving you a poor seal and burn thru....Good patching material is essential...Email me your address and I'll send you a sample of some patching I have used for years in everything from a 180 grain 69 load to a 50 grain 40 cal load...Patch/ball combo can't be too tight in my opinion...Got to have some kind of lube and I don't mean spit which works poorly... :winking:...The Lizard...

 

[roundball]

The name of the product is:

Hoppes No9 BP-PLUS Solvent & Patch Lube

Simply outstanding stuff...I normally use NL1000 prelubed patches but when the humidity is real low/dry, NL1000 won't let me shoot range sessions in the winter time without wiping between shots.

Hoppes No9 BP + does as it's a semi-liquid so that's what I use Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar...NL1000 the rest of the time

 

[rabbit03]

Good post!

I just went back and looked at the photos of his patches and it would appear that they are definitely too loose a weave. Notice the threads all fringed around the outside edge. Even if it the patch would have burned through for some reason or another ther would not be the amount of fringes hanging out all around the patches.

Notice on the photos of the patches I posted in the accuracy section and how you might see a thread or two there is still that tight weave on the fabric all around it. The .490 ball combined with the loose weave is causing the problem,or that is what it appears to be with the info given. It appears to be too loose a combonation to seal the gasses and thereby letting the fire come around the patch and burn it causeing the loss of accuracy.

I spoke to Bonnie of Texas patching and asked her about the material they use in their ticking. The said the heavier of the two was a Canvas or Ducking that is the .020 thick and the other one which is .015 is a sail cloth weave which is a light canvas.

The difference is the weave and how it is woven which makes it durable. That is what I see in Wirehairmans patch photos, that the material is failing during the firing of the weapon.

So again, it is the material (cotton) and how it is woven which makes all the difference.

rabbit03

 

[roundball]

IMO, when he seated a spare lubed patch down on the power as a fire wall and still had the same problem eliminates fire as a possibility.

 

[rabbit03]

Not me! I think that the fire and preasure has no problem going by the spare patch at all. And if he is using a too loose of a patch and a .010 undersize ball then the spare patch serves no use at all thereby allowing it to burn through past the loaded ball.

My thoughts

rabbit03

 

[wirehairman]

1) did you load your lubed patches after the Hoppes, if so then you may have taken some of the lubricant out of the barrel with it. However I am only familiar with the Hoppes used in cleaning guns and not of this black powder lube. Is this a lube or a solvent type?

Roundball was correct. I was using the Hoppes No. 9 Plus - Blackpowder Solvent and Patch Lubricant.

2) Check the roundball size if you can and make sure they are the same.

They are the same balls I have been shooting, Speer .490".

3) Check the patches also make sure they are the same thickness as the old ones you were using.

The new patches are listed as .015", the same as I've been shooting, but I have not been able to micrometer them. At the same time, I tried to load a ball patched with the T/C pre-lubed .015" patches I had been using and experienced the same trouble seating and loading the ball.

And what did you use on the 0000 steel wool as a polishing liquid?

:redface: I did not use a polishing liquid. I was going to pick up some Brasso but thought I'd confused it with the brass brush when I quickly reread the post on the way out of the door to get the steel wool. I wrapped 0000 steel wool around a brass cleaning brush and polished the barrel dry. Should I re-polish the barrel with the polishing liquid?

-------------------------------------------------

I hope the additional information helps give a clearer picture of what's going on. Again, I really appreciate your guys advice on the matter.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I swuggest using a cotton swab cleaning jag, with a large cleaning patch, and then put a good amount of JB Borecleaner, or a lapping compound on the patch and polish the lands with that combination. The steel removed with leave the patch BLACK, so you will know when to change the patch, and put some mew JB Bore cleaner on it. If you don't want to order the JB Bore cleaner from Brownells, or other suppliers, you can check the auto parts stores for lapping compounds. They work, too. If the lapping compounds come as a dry dust, just mix them with a little cold cream, or bore butter to hold the mixture on the cleaning patch. If you don't have a cotton cleaning swab jag, you can do this using that bore brush. It will just take longer. I suspect that since you didn't use any oil or other cleaners or compounds with that OOOO steel wool, you have roughed up the bore a little, and that explains why PRB are not difficult to load. IF you were to shoot about 200 rounds out of that barrel, it would also lap the bore, but that is a lot of lead ball and powder basically wasted.

I have heard of people putting JB bore cleaner on their Patch instead of a lube, and then running a round ball on top of the patch down the barrel as usual. Shooting the PRB will lpa the bore, and grooves doing this. I don't know how efficient that way of doing the lap is, however. I have done the lapping with JB Bore cleaner and clean patches using the cotton swab, and it took less than a hour to both see and feel the difference in the barrel.

 

[rabbit03]

I would think all is ok!

first things first, go and get the Brasso and try this again. Slip one patch over the jag (the one that is for your .50 cal barrel and then get a bit of 0000steel wool and lay it over the patch and jag and fold the sides back toward the rod. Pour about a oz of Brasso in the barrel, make sure your nipple hole is plugged so that it won't run out, then place the barrel in the vise so that the breech of the barrel is slightly tilted down so that it holds the Brasso. Then saturate your patch/steel wool that is on your jag and send it down the barrel. (You should have to pound it in the bore to get it started, meaning that it should fit very tight!) Make sure to use a bore guide on the rod while your doing this. And the best results will be while using a steel rod to do all of this work.

Then get after it, all the way in and then almost all the way out. Do this for about 10 times or so then on the last time take it all the way out. Then start all over again using the same patch and steel wool. You will actually be able to feel as it indexes back into the grooves since they are now imparted on the steel wool and the crushed patch, it has all conformed to the inside of the barrel.

Don't make me come over there :rotf:

Anyway make sure this is all done in a place you won't mind getting all messed up with Brasso all over the place, I do mine in the garage. You will end up with a greyish black mess as the wool and the brasso start polishing the roughness out of the barrel. Of course doing this will make it like you shot thousands of rounds through it but trust me the bore will outlast you if you get it smoothed up.

Depending on how much polishing it is going to take will of course determine how long to polish it. Just use your common sense and try about 100 or 150 or so passes in and out to start and see where your at. Ater you think you have it done clean it all up and get down to the range and try it out.


Let us hear something soon!

rabbit03

 

[ss1]

I had the same problem when I cleaned [laped with Break-Free bore past on cleaning patch.] It returned to normal sometime during my 80 shot section.Maybe 20shots. I got better very quickly. Your barrel is not as slick as it was, It will be. NO PROBLEM! I have been told, and belive it, if you put toothpast on cleaning patch, and do about 20 strokes, it speeds it up. I was using tef and wiping between shots. NO WAY you could have messted up your barrel. Just shoot and injoy.

 

[wirehairman]

I will pick up the polishing compound and give it another go tonight or tomorrow night. Thanks agin for the encouragement and advice.

 

[brian turpin]

Try a spit patch. Just get some new clean pillow ticking and hold it in your mouth while you are loading the powder. This will soak up plenty of spit to act as a lube. Then load as you normally would.
Brian

 

[lightsky]

the recomended ball/patch combo is .495 and .010
patch,but .490/.015 works well too.
looks like the weave in the patch is too loose,get material with a tighter weave.
i agree 80grs 3f is heavy,try 50/55grs it's easier to shoot.
a good load is .490rb,.015 patch,55grs 3f
should be able to reach out 120 yds+ with ease
goosd shooting :thumbsup: