Shredded Patches?

[xxgrampa]

greetings round ball.

two excellent tests to isolate 'patch failure'. thank you, i will add them to my 'tool box'.

//ttfn..grampa..

 

[paulvallandigham]

Check out the location of the nearest rendezvous to your state. And, contact Goex on their website( see the links here) and ask them for the nearest distributor. The distributor can arrange to send you powder directly, or tell you the name a a dealer close to you where you can buy it. There are lots of re-enactors in Montana, both for the fur trade, Lewis and Clark expedition, the Little Big Horn battlefield, etc. All of those men need and use black powder. You don't have to join their groups or do their thing to make a few friends so you can combine an order for black powder and buy enough to keep the price down for all of you. The NMLRA has charter clubs in about all the states, and State Representatives, too. Join the NMLRA> Then contact the State Rep. and get his advice for your nearest club, or source of powder.

If we don't hang together, we certainly will hang separately.

 

[wirehairman]

Thanks for pointing me to the Goex web site. I found a distributor in Miles City, which is only 145 miles away. I will have to pick some up the next time I'm over that way.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most of those distributors have 800 numbers. Call the company and see if they have any retailers nearer to you. No sense paying for 35 dollars worth of gas just to save 10 dollars on a pound of powder. I found a distributor in Oregon that would deliver BP to my cousin in Clarkston, Washington. They folks are nice people to talk to and to do business with. They are just as frustrated as we shooters about these new Homeland Security regulations. Putting retailers out of business is hurting their sales, too.

 

[roundball]

Thanks for pointing me to the Goex web site. I found a distributor in Miles City, which is only 145 miles away. I will have to pick some up the next time I'm over that way.

You can have it delivered to your door far cheaper than a 300 mile round trip would cost.
When I have a case of Goex delivered, the total delivered price is $10.90/lb

 

[Herb]

It don't get much better than that. I picked up a case of Goex at Coonie's Black Powder, Inc. in Hobbs, NM last October and, with no shipping, it cost me $10.35 a pound with all the fees. It started out at $9.25 a pound. Got back to Utah and found some friends got a case of Swiss from Upper Missouri Traders in Nebraska for about $17.50 a pound delivered, and that would have cost me $1.10 a pound more picked up. I believe all black powder prices went up the first of the year, so these are last year's prices.

 

[wirehairman]

I pass through Miles City fairly regularly for work or on hunting/fishing trips, so that wouldn't have been a big deal. I still called the 800 number for more information and found that they supply a small, out of the way shop here in Billings. I'm set. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

By all means, suppor your local dealer. If he has taken the trouble to comply with those damn Fed. regulations, he must really want to sell shooters black powder. I bet he will know where the local BP shooters gather, too.

 

[roundball]

"...I believe all black powder prices went up the first of the year, so these are last year's prices.

Yeah, they do tend to jump up at the first of every year...seems a little odd to me frankly...there's so little competition I guess they can do whatever they want.

I'm just about to drop under my 25lb minimum, so I'll be ordering a case soon to drive my inventory back up close to the allowable 50lbs on hand.

 

[Herb]

I looked more closely at my bill and about $15 of it was sales tax. I don't think you pay that when you order from another state.

 

[wirehairman]

After receiving several great suggestions, I tried roundball's idea of shooting a much smaller load (40 grains) and using a second patch as a wad with my original 80 grain load to see what happened. Here are the results.

My first shot of the day with 40 grains shredded the patch, and the other two patches with 40 grains have small tears in the center that really don't show up well in the picture. The ball patches from the 80 grain load are all over the place. The extra patches seemed ok, though, and don't show any signs of burn through in my greenhorn opionion.

Any thoughts? Do you guys think it is my rifling cutting the patches, tearing at short start (I paid attention and couldn't feel any tearing), or is it still a problem with too hot a load?

 

[paulvallandigham]

How thick are those patches, and what are you using for lube? I don't understand how the patch around the ball with the 80 grain charge can be so torn, while the "extra patch" you put against the powder looks okay? The charring in the center makes me suspect that you are not using enough lube, or the material is too thin to hold enough lube.

 

[wirehairman]

The patches are .015" T/C prelubed patches. The charring you are referring to may actually be a black marker. I marked each patch "4", "8", or "X" with a sharpie before shooting them so as not to confuse them after the shot.

 

[roundball]

That's interesting...because 2 of the 3 patches at 40grns are exactly what they should look like.

Anyway, your tests prove to me that the fire is NOT causing the problem...it's either tearing during short start or there is/are sharp lands in the bore.

The next most logical thing to me is they're tearing at short start as someone else mentioned earlier...easiest thing to me would be to get a brand new 'FRESH' bag of patches, from a completely different place from where you bought the first ones, in case the ones you've been using are somehow rotted from age or improper storage, etc, and are pulling apart under the strain of being short started.

Assuming the replacement bag of patches is good fresh stock, and they still shred at 40grns, it's gotta be something in the bore.

By the way, when you get new fresh patches, if you have a ball puller or an air compressor, one quick check of the bore would be to seat a patched ball WITHOUT any powder, then using a ball puller or compressed air, pull it back out and see if the new patches are cut.

 

[2172]

The cut threw patches look exactly like what I was getting out of my Lyman Deerslayer .50 until I spent some time with steel wool on a bronze brush....a bore light actually showed the tool marks...and, I was only using a .49 ball and a .010 patch...Hank

 

[HuntAway]

Mine as well. I'm taking the less arduous route and trying some "new".020 patches first to see what happens.

 

[longcruise]

You are probably dealing with a combination of sharp lands and too thin a patch. Try scouring your bore down with steel wool as suggested above to get rid of the sharper edges.

Also, take the same patches and try loading with a double patch. Not one under the ball, but place two patches over the muzzle and load.

My next suggestion would be to stop wasting your money on precut commmercial patches. Go to the fabric store and get a selection of canvas duck, pillow ticking, cotton drill and denim. Don't bother with the micrometer measurements. You will be able to tell by handling the material which is the thicker. Keep track of what you buy so you can go back for more of what works.

Another good patch material is unsized bulk artists canvas if there is a good art supply store nearby. The one in my neighborhoods sells 8oz, 10oz and 12oz canvas. Different weights work in different guns.

Whatever you buy be sure to run it through the was several times. It cleans it up and shrinks and tightens the weave.

You should for sure do something about smoothing your barrel before you wast any more time testing the rifle.

Take your collection of patch material and some lube to the range and mark them (like you have been doing) so you will know which is which. Shoot four or five shots with each patch material with 100 or 110 grains of powder and carefully inspect your patches. When you are done, you will know which patch holds up the best in your rifle.

Don't bother with checking accuracy during this test. the only thing you are looking for is a patch material that will consistently survive shooting over a heavy charge of pwoder. Once you have the best patch material identified, you can start to build your accuracy loads.

If you are not familiar with cutting your patch at the muzzle, precut them in squares. A square patch works just as good as a round one. Make them big enough so it is easy to surround your ball when loaded. The spin of the rifling will throw the patch wide open as soon as it leaves the muzzle and the square cut will have no influence on your accuracy.

Hope this helps. I know it's kinda long winded, but just rying to help you get to the solution as easily as possible.

 

[rabbit03]

Damn sound advice too!
:hatsoff:

I would tell him to try a large ball, a .005 undersize too while he is at it. The patches reveal a blow by which tells me that the fire is geting past the undersized ball and not sealing it up. People don't understand or realize sometime just how much preasure and heat is generated behind the ball at the time of explosion.

I also like the advice of smooting the barrel first too. I do the dame thing on my barrels and although I use a different method the results are the same, a smooooooth barrel. I typically use a patch over a brass jag and then some 0000 steel wool over the patch and then pour some Brasso in the barrel and saturate the jag and patch/steel wool. Then I run it in and out of the rifle alot to get the roughness out.

The result of doing the smooting is a bore that not only is smooth and will resist cutting patches, but it will also clean up better now that is has a polish to it.

rabbit03 :thumbsup:

 

[xxgrampa]

hi ho wirehair.

if your new occupation is to be a patch tester, take a large cardboard box with you. use the box for a target a few feet or more in front of the gun. shoot it. it will catch your patches. a lot easier that hunting for them..

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[wirehairman]

Based on numerous suggestions, I am going to try and polish my barrel with the 0000 steel wool before I continue working on finding the right patch/load. How much polishing is necessary to get the desired results? Knowing myself, I'm more worried about over-doing it than anything.