Slow Ignition

[musketman]

Can you guys remove your vent liners while the
barrel is still mounted on the gun? I can not,
I have to remove the barrel to remove the liner.

Couldn't you just remove the lock to fully expose the liner while the barrel is still installed in the gun?

 

[redwing]

Roundball why do you have to count the antlers 2 times? We count ours 1 time and they are big deer.
The hex vent is not known as a good system when compared to the Chambers or even the slotted vent. I think they are used in mass produced guns to cut production cost. It takes time and skill to properly fit a real vent. It is in the long run worth it. Yes a fine firearm is a pleasure to own.

 

[walley]

Couldn't you just remove the lock to fully expose the liner while the barrel is still installed in the gun?

Thanks for the tip Musketman, that'll work.
Guys I guess I told you wrong (sorry). I see in the
pics that the liner rim is all that is blocked by
the pan. And the socket clears the pan. I remembered
on the range the other day that it looked partily
blocked but it was sooted up too.

I liked the Hexed liner for ease of removal, but
looks like I'll be using the slotted liner if I
can't find a cure for the Hexed.

Would 3F for a priming powder make any difference
for better or worst?

 

[Russianblood]

It looks like the vent hole is the proper height. Most vent liners have to have the lock removed to take them out.

 

[Toomuch_36]

In my experience the coned liners give a much faster timing than non-coned liners as well.
As for having to remove the barrel to remove the liner, on a rifle with a hooked breach design this is not difficult. On a full stocked rifle or a rifle with the barrel pinned into the stock this can be a real problem, in which case the best course of action would be to remove the lock, which you would do for cleaning and relubricating anyways.

Toomuch
..........
Shoot Flint

 

Ineresting though, how some of you are have'n excellent
results with the Hex liners, while others are/were in
the same boat as me. :hmm:

Perhaps some people have higher expectations and/or more experience than others. Since nobody is actually timeing their locks, "lightning fast" and "extremely slow" become relative terms that don't really qualify the actual speed of ignition but rather, the speed relative to the shooters expectations or experience. Example, shooter "A" may have a faster ignition speed than shooter "B" but "A" views his ignition speed as slow and unacceptable while "B" thinks his is instantanious. Like the old saying goes, "One mans trophy is another mans meat buck".

Cody

 

[roundball]

"...The hex vent is not known as a good system when compared to the Chambers or even the slotted vent..."

You make that statement as if it's some sort of scientifically established test result...please post the documentation reference to back that up.

But I suspect you can't and it's really just your opinion...reminds me of the old saying, opinions are like noses...everybody has one and they're all different.
:grin:

PS: and by all means, please post the photos of your 10 pointers with your Flintlock hanging in it's antlers, regardless of how you count them. Here's one of mine...you can just count one side if you like:

:grin:

 

[redwing]

You have made your point your rifle is larger than your deer. We are getting off the thread. The discussion is slow ignition.
No I don't have facts from some large Eastern College. I do stand by my statement that the Hex vent is a process used in mass produced firearms to cut cost.
These vents usally need larger touch holes and more powder to work. I shoot at matches all over the west. I never see anyone using this type of vent in shooting events. If you are having slow ignition and using a Hex change it to a chambers W/L it works great with a 1/16 hole and a small charge on the right of the pan.

 

[Birddog6]

Ka-Boom: I will suggest you modify the sloted vent liner that came with the rifle & end your ignition problems. It has worked for hundreds of others & no reason it should not work for you.
Mount the vent liner in a vice with leather on each side as not to damage the liner & drill the vent hole out with a #2 center drill & then continue drilling & slightly cone the face of the liner about 1/2 of the slots width on each side.
Now turn the liner over & cone the back of the vent liner with the same drill or s tapered reamer. Now put it in the rifle & you WILL see a tremendous dif in ignition timing. :thumbsup:


(Keep in mind that you have just eliminated half of the screwdriver slot, so it is important that you now use a screwdriver that properly & fully fits the sloted liner slots, and Do NOT tortue the vent liner in, just put a lil neverseize on it & barely snug it into place)

 

[Flintandsteel]

KaBoom,

OK, I've been watching this thread for a while, so far, I've not noticed anyone mention the reality of "speed of ignition" for any flintlock.

This has been discussed many times on this board, but we'll review one more time.

Speed = getting the main charge as close as possible to the flash.

That's what makes White lightning liners work so well. The wall between the main charge and the flash is only around .010 to .020".
It just stands to reason then, that a recessed vent liner goes against that principal.
I've heard many individuals claim that they are just as fast.... :bull: maybe occasionally, when you get just the right amount of powder in the allen channel, but it just can't be consistent. Too little, it doesn't go off, or goes off slow. Too much, it acts like a fuse.

A flat fronted liner, with a mininal wall thickness IS just the fastest, most consistent vent liner. :hmm:

Remember, it is not a spark that sets off the main charge. It is the flare from the priming powder. :hmm:

I know this may not be popular with everyone on the board. But the truth usully isn't popular with everyone. :nono:

Size of the touch hole is another issue.
Yes, a larger touch hole will speed up ignition, but, there is a point of diminishing returns.
Particularly on smaller calibers. Too large a hole = inconsistency in pressure= inaccuracy. Everything we do for accuracy is trying to make each shot the same as the last. Can't do that if you're venting half the pressure out the touch hole. Again, especially in smaller calibers.
That larger touch hole will also burn out that much quicker.

Any way, this should raise some eyebrows again.
Hope this helps with your pursuit :v

 

[redwing]

The facts well stated by a custom rifle smith. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

KaBoom,

OK, I've been watching this thread for a while, so far, I've not noticed anyone mention the reality of "speed of ignition" for any flintlock.

This has been discussed many times on this board, but we'll review one more time.

Speed = getting the main charge as close as possible to the flash.

That's what makes White lightning liners work so well. The wall between the main charge and the flash is only around .010 to .020".
It just stands to reason then, that a recessed vent liner goes against that principal.
I've heard many individuals claim that they are just as fast.... :bull: maybe occasionally, when you get just the right amount of powder in the allen channel, but it just can't be consistent. Too little, it doesn't go off, or goes off slow. Too much, it acts like a fuse.

A flat fronted liner, with a mininal wall thickness IS just the fastest, most consistent vent liner. :hmm:

Remember, it is not a spark that sets off the main charge. It is the flare from the priming powder. :hmm:

I know this may not be popular with everyone on the board. But the truth usully isn't popular with everyone. :nono:

Size of the touch hole is another issue.
Yes, a larger touch hole will speed up ignition, but, there is a point of diminishing returns.
Particularly on smaller calibers. Too large a hole = inconsistency in pressure= inaccuracy. Everything we do for accuracy is trying to make each shot the same as the last. Can't do that if you're venting half the pressure out the touch hole. Again, especially in smaller calibers.
That larger touch hole will also burn out that much quicker.

Any way, this should raise some eyebrows again.
Hope this helps with your pursuit :v

What products did you include in your tests?
How did you set up and run your tests?
How did you measure the speed differences?
What were the differences in ignition speed?
Thanks

 

[walley]

When the flame passes thru the touch hole, does
the cone actually modify the flame or does the
cone just provide air to keep the flame from
deminishing? In other words, would the flame look
like this

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Can you guys remove your vent liners while the
barrel is still mounted on the gun? I can not,
I have to remove the barrel to remove the liner.
The reason I ask is, when the barrel is setting
in the rifle a very small bottom portion of the
Hex liner's socket is blocked by the pan. The flash
hole seems to be clear though. I don't know if maybe
a portion of the flash may be blowing above the
flash hole causeing the delayed ignition. I'll try
and post a pic of it on the gun and see what you
guys think. Ineresting though, how some of you are have'n
excellent results with the Hex liners, while others are/were
in the same boat as me. :hmm:

Hi Ka Boom,

You shouldn't have to remove your barrel to remove the vent liner. You will have to remove the lock, but shouldn't have to pull the barrell.

--------------------------------
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

When the flame passes thru the touch hole, does
the cone actually modify the flame or does the
cone just provide air to keep the flame from
deminishing? In other words, would the flame look
like this

 

[roundball]

Ka-Boom...here are some views of a couple hex vent liners...ignition seems instantaneous and is 100% reliable every time...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ka Boom: I believe the Chamber's coned liner does two things that help improve ignition. First it does allow a little more powder to be close to priming pan. Second, more importantly, the parabolic curve( Think football) focuses the heat of the prime which aids ignition, and then the pressure that is trying to escape through the vent is focused back towards the main charge by the curve to keep the pressure up while the rest of the main charge ignites. Then, after the pressure drops, the rest of the pressure exits the vent, as the ball is already moving down and leaving the barrel. I believe this affect on the chamber pressure is what makes the Chamber's coned vent work better than and straight wall shaped vent liner. It is the combination of both pressure and heat that makes the chamber's vent cone work so well, aid quick buildup of pressure in the chamber, and faster total ignition/firing time.

Consder this: When your gun with the coned vent liner is loaded, it is standing on the butt, muzzle up, and the powder poured into the barrel compacts at the bottom of the barrel, with some moving into the coned vent. Putting the PRB down forces air in the barrel ahead of the PRB, which travels through the powder and out the vent, moving some of the powder from the coned vent out of the vent into the pan, or on the ground, and more of the powder charge from the barrel into the vent. If you put a feather or toothpick into the vent to keep the powder from escaping this way, then the air has to travel back around the sides of the PRB to allow the PRB to be seated on the powder. That air has to go somewhere.

Now, assuming you have a vent liner completely full of powder, when you turn the gun barrel horizontal, to bring it up so you can remove that feather or toothpick,from the vent, and prime the pan, gravity will pull down on the powder in the vent liner. The hole left in the powder charge by the feather or toothpick, or whatever else you use to plug the vent, will be replaced by powder, leaving a small gap at the now topside of the vent liner. If some of the powder falls out the vent into the pan, more air is provided in the vent liner. The extra air acts to draw the flame and heat into the main charge, aiding ignition of the MAIN CHARGE. Igniting the priming powder is SOLELY the function of a properly tuned lock with a flint properly set in the cock so it throws sparks into the pan.

When seen as part of this entire system of igniting a flintlock's powder charge, a parabolic vent liner aids ignition of the main charge by resisting efforts of the chamber's pressure to escape out the vent, by using pressure to push against pressure. It also focuses the heat of the burning powder to raise the temperature in the main charge, giving more complete ignition of the powder, and leaving less residue in the barrel after the shot is fired. For the cost of the vent liner, it is very worth the money.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Roundball,

Answer to ALL of your questions.

Basic Physics.

We can agree to disagree, but these are the facts, at least as I see them.
Your mileage may vary. :v

I will use nothing but a Chamber's White Lightnin liner in any gun I build for myself or others.
They just work..... every time. No flashes in the pan, no failures to fire, no hang fires. :thumbsup:

And yes.... Basic Physics bears that out.

IMHO

 

[Juggernaut]

I bought an extra vent liner for my Lyman Trade
rifle. (The Allen type) I installed it the other
day and the ignition was very slow. Kind of like
squeezing a balloon till it pops. The shots were
more of a shove than a kick. Of course my accuracy
suffered severely. The original (Slotted) liner
gives average to instant ignition. The only
difference I can see between the two are the way
they are coned. The flash ports look to be the
same size in both liners. I am using Goex 4F in the pan.

Does the cone direction change the ignition speed?

Thanks

KaBoom,
If you look at the one that gives you delayed ignition the allen type is recessed somewhat you may want to tilt your flintlock to ensure the fffg is in that pocket. I do that with mine and I have always had instant ignition.

Juggernaut

 

[buckknife]

the lyman has a patent breech i think.So coned on the outside of the vent or a larger hole is about as good as it gets.Just have to try diffent ways of loading.I found with my gun and its patent breech that if i dont pack the powder and load the patch and ball nice and slow i dont get much of any 3f blow out my .90+ vent hole.I can then fill my enlarged pan full.That comes right up about half way on my vent hole,but that dont matter cause its more than twice the size it was before and by not packing the powder and keeping it from pilling up inside the vent i have left a air space that runs directly to that small patent breech.Goes boom every time with no delay.There is no fuse effect because when the pan ignites so does that little bit of 4f that is in the lower half of the vent.Im not a great shot with a flintlock but i can keep em inside a 3 inch black dot at 50 yards,thats off my elbows in a siting position :haha: Thats about twice as far as i plan on shooten at deer with it.I just let em come to me,seems more effective than me going after them