Spanish 1757 Replica Musket

[Manchac]

Thanks Hermano, that is great information! Does the symbol with the guard/guardhouse and the one with three stacked circles mean anything in particular?

 

[toot]

Actually, the bayonet is an India made copy of the Spanish one. But someone went to the trouble of having it fit properly. So you might think this gun was with a re-enactor at some point (?) But one look down the bore and pan area there is no evidence it was ever fired. The frizzen looks like it's never been test sparked. LOL

Rick

as stated a great score!!! even with an INDIAN BAYONET! it is a complete piece!

 

[toot]

Thanks Notchy Bob. I believe another Spanish manufacturer named Mendi produced a similar musket, but I don't know If one manufacturer took over from the other at a later time, or they cooperatively or competitively produced them in parallel, or what. I would like to know about that if anyone has info. My other musket is a Pedersoli Charleville replica, which I like, and I would have gladly bought a M1757 replica from them, but since my interest is primarily from a living history perspective the historical inaccuracies were a concern. I think you are spot-on about the re-enactors and can add Clark's Virginia militia and their Illinois Campaign to the list.

I have a MENDI, MUFF PISTOL from the 1960,s. didn,t know that they made long guns?

 

[toot]

the MUFF PISTOLS were all marked on the barrel as 12M/M. 48, CAL. witch is incorrect, as the bore DIA. is actually 40 CAL. on them.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Thanks Hermano, that is great information! Does the symbol with the guard/guardhouse and the one with three stacked circles mean anything in particular?

Yes, it means that the weapon has been tested and approved for use with black powder, it already supports up to 700 Klgms/cm2. That pressure for a .72 caliber musket is achieved with a test load of 200 grains of gunpowder 3 FFFg and 864 grains of shot weight. As you can see, it is a much higher load than normal, which is no more than 100 grains of 2 FFg black powder and a .680 or .690 spherical bullet. Greetings from Spain.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

I have a MENDI, MUFF PISTOL from the 1960,s. didn,t know that they made long guns?

Hello. Yes, Mendi, later called Dikar (and now Bergara Barrels), made a copy of the Spanish musket, model 1757, and also of the French Charleville, model 1728, with a "cow's foot" butt. I believe that this model was commissioned for Canada, although some were sold in Spain in 1980, when these guns were still available for sale without a license. Greetings.

 

[FlinterNick]

The musket you have is a very limited edition Spanish musket that was produced in Spain by I believe Jukar, the purpose of this model was for military parade, they were made fully functional. I’ve seen this same exact gun sell at Track of the Wolf on auction. The guns were stocked in Beech or European walnut, I believe. The locks were casted by molds made by Jess Melot of the Rifle Shoppe and the Brass parts were cast molded by Reeves Ghuring. Assembled and sold by Jukar of Spain.

The stamps at the Breech are modern day Spanish proof marking stamps.

These were not sold by Dixie Gun Works, the Spanish musket sold by Dixie Gun works isn’t Spanish at all, its just their 1763 Charleville with brass bands and a large ring fastened top jaw screw.

This is a very nice musket, the only issue I‘ve ever heard of with them were

 

[Zonie]

Hello partners. This musket was manufactured by Ardesa in tested in 1983 (this is known by the letter C*2) which corresponds to all weapons manufactured and tested in Spain that year. Ardesa assembled it, but it is possible that the barrel and especially the lock were already manufactured by Mendi a few years earlier. Mendi and Jukar are two factories that merged in 1980 to give rise to DIKAR (joining the syllables of the names of the two factories, Di Kar emerges). All their muzzleloading guns sold in Spain, but mostly in the USA. Being imported by CVA. The lock to that musket is good. Maybe the frizzen spring needs to be tweaked and fine-tuned. It is also stamped on the barrel as if it were a 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun (by stamp C 12). In case someone wants to load it with black powder and a load of pellets (shots) or posts (buckshot), in addition, of course, with a 0.690 or 0.678 spherical bullet, in paper cartridge or with the bullet wrapped in a patch.
From Dikar I have the Frontier rifle (in caliber 45) in flintlock, and the "Mountain" of 58 in percussion.
I leave the following link so that all members of the forum know the year of manufacture and testing of Spanish weapons.

Annex: Marks and punches of the eibarresa armory
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Marcas_y_punzones_de_la_armería_eibarresa
Greetings from Spain.

Thank you for posting a link to the proof testing marks.

It does bring up a question for you. Is proof testing required for all barrels made in Spain?
I ask because I have a CVA 12 guage double barrel shotgun and your list caused me to check out my shotgun to see when it was made.

There are no proof marks on either barrel. This includes the bottom of the barrels.
The rib that separates the barrels is marked on its upper surface:

Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc.
Black Powder Only 12 guage
SHOTGUN

To the right of this, also on the rib is marked,
85 0611XX

I believe the second number starting with 0611 is the serial number.

There are no other markings. No Kp700/cm², no C12 or any similar number which leads me back to my original question. Is proog testing required for all barrels made in Spain? and if so, why are their no other markings beyond the ones I mentioned above?

 

[Manchac]

Thanks for the American Society of Arms Collectors reference Notchy Bob. I had not seen that one. I do suggest Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821 by Sidney Brinkerhoff though only a few pages are about this musket.

 

[Manchac]

Thanks FlinterNick, can you provide the link to that Track of the Wolf page? I can't seem to find that on their website. Do you think that was a one-off sale by Track of the Wolf or did they sell more of these and, if so, do you know during what period they were sold?

 

[Notchy Bob]

Manchac,

The web page posted by @FlinterNick in Post #27 (above) is from the Track of the Wolf Archive, which requires a subscription. I don't think a link to the page will work. I think an annual subscription costs about $20, but it provides access to Track's high-quality photographs and descriptions of guns, rifles, pistols, revolvers, cutlery, and Indian artifacts that they have handled and sold over the years. I had not seen that particular musket before, but I went to the archive and searched, and found it. They indicate that gun sold on 7/1/2004 for $999.00. If you get a subscription, open the archive page and enter Spanish 1756 Musket in the search box. I understand the date should probably be 1757, but Track has it listed as 1756 and if you enter the other date, it won't come up. The only other Spanish-style musket listed in the archive was this one, which I believe was probably made in India:

Thanks for the reference on Brinkerhoff's Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821. I have that book. Another reference which is often cited with regard to Spanish arms is James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms.

I only recently acquired a copy of this book and have not read it yet. I leafed through it this afternoon, looking for more information on the M1757, but did not find anything. The Lavin book seems to focus primarily on sporting arms and weapons privately owned by individuals.

If you have any interest in other Spanish firearms, you would probably enjoy scrolling through this thread: Escopeta Anyone?, started by @Flint62Smoothie back in January. There was a pretty lively discussion, and @rickystl showed us the photos of his Spanish musket which were repeated here.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[FlinterNick]

Manchac,

The web page posted by @FlinterNick in Post #27 (above) is from the Track of the Wolf Archive, which requires a subscription. I don't think a link to the page will work. I think an annual subscription costs about $20, but it provides access to Track's high-quality photographs and descriptions of guns, rifles, pistols, revolvers, cutlery, and Indian artifacts that they have handled and sold over the years. I had not seen that particular musket before, but I went to the archive and searched, and found it. They indicate that gun sold on 7/1/2004 for $999.00. If you get a subscription, open the archive page and enter Spanish 1756 Musket in the search box. I understand the date should probably be 1757, but Track has it listed as 1756 and if you enter the other date, it won't come up. The only other Spanish-style musket listed in the archive was this one, which I believe was probably made in India:

View attachment 75619


Thanks for the reference on Brinkerhoff's Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821. I have that book. Another reference which is often cited with regard to Spanish arms is James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms.

View attachment 75618

I only recently acquired a copy of this book and have not read it yet. I leafed through it this afternoon, looking for more information on the M1757, but did not find anything. The Lavin book seems to focus primarily on sporting arms and weapons privately owned by individuals.

If you have any interest in other Spanish firearms, you would probably enjoy scrolling through this thread: Escopeta Anyone?, started by @Flint62Smoothie back in January. There was a pretty lively discussion, and @rickystl showed us the photos of his Spanish musket which were repeated here.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Yea it requires a membership, I posted a picture of that musket and its description From the Track Site, the other spanish musket listed on their site Looks like a middlesex trading Indian made musket. The other one made by Spain is a very authentic copy almost down to every detail other than a few modern markings. The barrel may have been an issue as I believe the muzzle on many of those was squared and not crowned.

The key factors in a 1752/57 Spanish musket are the various french characteristics, the musket is very similar to a French 1728-1754 pattern gun with a few minor differences in the lock and barrel bands.

Many consider the 1752/57 to be of the highest quality smoothbore muskets ever produced by any governmental ordinance department.

I was able to try a Rifle Shoppe 1752 Brown Bess stock in walnut and dressed in steel furniture , at first glance you’d say it was a 1754 style musket but it such shorter by about 5 inches and has a much better quality lock.

 

[Manchac]

I didn't know about the Track of the Wolf archive. That is a great resource so thanks for sharing!

Since someone brought up bayonets, the attached photo shows the top bayonet that came with the musket and which I was told came from TRS. The bottom bayonet is a period piece, likely from the late 18th or early 19th century, that I had acquired previously and the two match up well. The period bayonet does not quite fit the barrel of my replica musket as the outer diameter of the replica barrel is slightly too large. This may explain why my replica, at about 10.5 lb, is heavier than the period musket is documented to weigh.

I was able to fix the issue with the sear not re-engaging the tumbler after firing by drilling a new pivot hole in the trigger slightly offset from the previous hole. The positioned things better geometrically so that the sear bar does not bind up with the trigger sometimes after firing.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Thank you for posting a link to the proof testing marks.

It does bring up a question for you. Is proof testing required for all barrels made in Spain?
I ask because I have a CVA 12 guage double barrel shotgun and your list caused me to check out my shotgun to see when it was made.

There are no proof marks on either barrel. This includes the bottom of the barrels.
The rib that separates the barrels is marked on its upper surface:

Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc.
Black Powder Only 12 guage
SHOTGUN

To the right of this, also on the rib is marked,
85 0611XX

I believe the second number starting with 0611 is the serial number.

There are no other markings. No Kp700/cm², no C12 or any similar number which leads me back to my original question. Is proog testing required for all barrels made in Spain? and if so, why are their no other markings beyond the ones I mentioned above?

Hello. Let me know, all muzzleloaders bear the marks of the Eibar test bench. That same Dikar shotgun (imported by CVA in the United States) I have had it, and it had the test marks (700 Kp / cm2), as well as a stamp indicating the year of manufacture and testing. I do not know if yours will be from an assembly kit, but in any case it is proven and can be used within the charges given in the user manual for CVA muzzleloader shotguns. Greetings from Spain.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Manchac,

The web page posted by @FlinterNick in Post #27 (above) is from the Track of the Wolf Archive, which requires a subscription. I don't think a link to the page will work. I think an annual subscription costs about $20, but it provides access to Track's high-quality photographs and descriptions of guns, rifles, pistols, revolvers, cutlery, and Indian artifacts that they have handled and sold over the years. I had not seen that particular musket before, but I went to the archive and searched, and found it. They indicate that gun sold on 7/1/2004 for $999.00. If you get a subscription, open the archive page and enter Spanish 1756 Musket in the search box. I understand the date should probably be 1757, but Track has it listed as 1756 and if you enter the other date, it won't come up. The only other Spanish-style musket listed in the archive was this one, which I believe was probably made in India:

View attachment 75619


Thanks for the reference on Brinkerhoff's Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821. I have that book. Another reference which is often cited with regard to Spanish arms is James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms.

View attachment 75618

I only recently acquired a copy of this book and have not read it yet. I leafed through it this afternoon, looking for more information on the M1757, but did not find anything. The Lavin book seems to focus primarily on sporting arms and weapons privately owned by individuals.

If you have any interest in other Spanish firearms, you would probably enjoy scrolling through this thread: Escopeta Anyone?, started by @Flint62Smoothie back in January. There was a pretty lively discussion, and @rickystl showed us the photos of his Spanish musket which were repeated here.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

The Kneale and Lavin books are very good, but they focus on civilian weapons, not military ones. In the 18th century, both Madrid and Ripoll and Barceolona made very good flintlock shotguns. What you call "fowler". The most famous, beautiful and best finished were those of the Madrid school, of 16 or 20 bores. All of them with a "patilla or miquelet flint lock" or with a lock "in the fashion of Madrid" (which was a mix between the French lock and the Spanish lock). In Spain partridges were already hunted on the fly with flintlock shotguns in 1640.

Here is a link to a painting by Velázquez. "King Felipe IV hunter". The painting was painted between 1632 and 1634. The lock of our king's shotgun is a flintlock, "patilla or miquelet", of the first models, since there were four variants until the percussion period.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOCzsL-4rfACFQAAAAAdAAAAABAL
Greetings from Spain.

 

[FlinterNick]

I didn't know about the Track of the Wolf archive. That is a great resource so thanks for sharing!

Since someone brought up bayonets, the attached photo shows the top bayonet that came with the musket and which I was told came from TRS. The bottom bayonet is a period piece, likely from the late 18th or early 19th century, that I had acquired previously and the two match up well. The period bayonet does not quite fit the barrel of my replica musket as the outer diameter of the replica barrel is slightly too large. This may explain why my replica, at about 10.5 lb, is heavier than the period musket is documented to weigh.

I was able to fix the issue with the sear not re-engaging the tumbler after firing by drilling a new pivot hole in the trigger slightly offset from the previous hole. The positioned things better geometrically so that the sear bar does not bind up with the trigger sometimes after firing.

Most modern reproduction military muskets weigh about 1-2 lbs more than the originals For a few reasons. The barrels are made heavier and denser for safety reasons, although some reproduction gun Barrels are very close in pattern to the originals. The brass and steel parts are casted a little bigger to account for shrinkage in the casting process, most original parts were made slightly smaller originally.

When i say most modern replicas I’m speaking of mostly he Charleville Muskets by Pedersoli and the Indian made manufacturers. The original Charlevilles with the exception of the 1763 were all around 8-9lbs at the maximum, same for some of the later springfields and harpers ferry muskets. The Pedersoli Brown Bess is actually significantly smaller than the originals but a little more robust in design in terms of stock density and barrel thickness. the Pedersoli Bess ought to be compared to a third model bess or fusil Rather than a heafty first or second model.

The Spanish musket holds the same truths in terms of size, the Spanish made barrel is pretty heavy compared to the original Which is what likely accounts for the extra weight.

 

[toot]

Hello. Yes, Mendi, later called Dikar (and now Bergara Barrels), made a copy of the Spanish musket, model 1757, and also of the French Charleville, model 1728, with a "cow's foot" butt. I believe that this model was commissioned for Canada, although some were sold in Spain in 1980, when these guns were still available for sale without a license. Greetings.

I have heard of a CLUB BUTT, but never a COW'S FOOT BUTT?? just what is the difference and what does it look like?

 

[Manchac]

Hermano,
Are you aware of any period art showing the M1757? Are you aware of any period M1757 muskets on display in Spanish museums? Thanks

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have heard of a CLUB BUTT, but never a COW'S FOOT BUTT?? just what is the difference and what does it look like?

The Cow's Foot Butt is the translation of the French term "pied de vache" used to describe the gracefully curving butt profile of the French Muskets, mainly the 1766 Charleville. That design characteristic was carried over to the Roman Nose design of some Pennsylvania rifles.

A search of the net turned several references to the term. A decent description is found here:
Kentucky Fowler - An American Restock of French Parts (collegehillarsenal.com)

 

[rickystl]

WOW!! This turned out to be an interesting Thread. Thank you Hermanos - and Others here for helping to unravel the mysteries of these replica muskets. And the other documentation is most useful. There still seems to be a bit of a mystery of the exact years these replica muskets were made, beginning to end. But we might eventually find out.

Interesting that the Spanish started using barrel bands (in place of pin fastening) early on. Even on their sporting guns. If my memory serves, in the Lavin book, it shows and reads that only the earliest guns had pin fastened barrels.

Also, according to TRS Catalog, the Spanish military early on started with the miquelet lock. Then changed over to the French style flintlock about mid-18th Century. Then, just after about 1790 changed back to the miquelet, which they thought stronger.

As a side interest, here is an original Spanish Model 1752 military pistol lock. You can see some similarities to the larger musket lock.

Rick