Stuck Rod & Misfire

[tradewind]

Greetings! My son took his 45 cal Lyman muzzleloader to the range for the first time. He experienced two problems:
1) Every 3 - 5 shots, using standard 2 1/2" cotton patches, he would clean his barrel with alcohol patches and follow up with a dry patch. The patches would get stuck in the barrel and he would take forever to wrestle the rod out. Eventually, he got tired of fighting with the jammed rod and switched to a slotted jag. Is this normal and what can be done to correct the problem?
2)Sometimes, after cleaning with the alcohol patches and following up with a dry patch, the next load would not ignite and fire. He would empty the load, reload and fire. What would cause the first load to do this?
Thank you.

 

[blacksmithman64]

Well, for one if its a new gun, its gonna need a "break in period" to get rid of the sharp lands and grooves that patches may be hanging up on. This could take up to 200 rounds.Also give up on the alcohol swabbing and just use spit patches for now, sounds like its getting into the works and dampening the charge. I know its supposed to evaporate but its dark inside a gun barrel.Run two dry patches after swabbing. Use T/C bore butter or bear grease to season the bore and avoid the commercial cleaners. A gun will season up just like a skillet and thats what you want, the commercial stuff strips all yer seasoning out! All I use is hot water and dry it good and apply bear grease. My guns shoot, look like , and SMELL like originals! :rotf: But seriously, it works!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Your son is a lucky feller with a Lyman as a 'starter' Muzzler. I'm assuming it is a caplock, I'm guessing you got blockage in your drum channel, maybe a bad nipple also. You using 3F black powder? good caps, not old caps that have been left out of the tin? maybe you should try a thinner patch for cleaning, I do and just dry patch between shots.

 

[spottedpony]

excessive alcohol could be dampening the charge, & down in the barrel its going to evaporate slowly.
just dry patch every 2 or 3 shots, or at least dry patch several times after the alcohol patches to be sure the bore is clean and dry. The issue with wet patching between shots on the lyman rifles (cabellas are from the same mfgr) are made by investarms and they have a patent breech so its impossible to dry them out totally with a caliber sized jag/patch combination. my guess is theres moisture remaining in the patent breech dampening the powder.
another possibility for the misfires, its possible with excessive fouling, the jag/patch is pushing fouling into the firing channel, so try using a nipple pick, or just a straightened out paper clip
to clean the nipple between shots,
As others have said, try just dry patching 2 or 3 patches as necessary to remove the worst of the fouling as needed between shots & i think you'll find thats sufficient in most cases.

 

[J.D.]

Sounds like a couple of things could be going on here.

First, I suspect that there are burrs on the riflings causing the rod to hang. Use a 1 1/2-2" wide, by however long piece of green scrubbie necessary to wrap tightly around a 32 or 36 jag to fit tightly into the bore.

Oil the bore and scrubb with 40-50 strokes to remove any sharp burrs.

Second, reduce the diameter of the 45 jag by .010-.020 so that the cleaning patch rides over the fouling on the way down. The patch will bunch up on the way out to pull the fouling out of the bore instead of pushing it into the mouth of the patent breech.

Third, don't use quite so much alcohol to swab.

A spit patch works very well for line shooting, but dries out when the gun is left loaded for several hours, as in hunting situations.

Some folks who use spit patches report shooting all day without swabbing. Gotta use a tight patch/ball combination and have smooth riflings, with no tool or chatter marks to use spit for patch lube as successfully as those folks do.
However, spit is still an excellent patch lube in most guns.

Seasoning is a wives tale. Modern steel barrels don't have pores like the old wrought iron barrels, so forget the idea of seasoning.

The type of powder used is not mentioned, and that may, or may not be part of the problem. Some substitute black powders develope fouling that can be more difficult to remove than black powder fouling.

That Lyman has a smaller diameter powder chamber in the breech. Some of these chambers are as small as 24 cal and are hard to clean, so make sure you have a small jag, ot better yet, a bore brush that will hold onto a patch that will get in there to clean that area.
J.D.

 

[Mad Professor]

Get (or make) yourself a T-handle to pull on the rod. When working the wet patch in go a few inches at a time working in and out, flip the patch and repeat. Do the same with the dry patch.

As mentioned above you may be pushing debris into the breech/flash channel. After every several shots snap a cap after swabbing, this will blow out any built up crud before loading the next shot. If possible do this into clean snow or some white paper to see if you are blowing out crud. If you don't get any crud blown out increase the number of shots between snapping a cap.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Most everything else was said already, but I'll give you one more piece of friendly advice and then a completely radical idea.

I stopped using anything wet to clean between shots a long time ago. I too own a Lyman, it's a Trade Rifle .50 cal. cap gun. All I use if I encounter a crud ring or any other problem that stops me from having fun shooting is a bore brush on the end of a range rod. As I push the brush down the bore, I twist the rod so as to tighten the brush back onto the rod BEFORE the brush falls off the rod and causes any problems. After I use the brush, I invert the muzzle and tap the side of the gun to dislodge any crud that the brush loosened-up. I then cap-off once or sometimes twice to clear the ignition path. Then I'm O-K to load & fire WITHOUT missfires!

Now for the radical idea: If you want to keep it fun and not have to even worry about the PRB cleaning thing...use Maxi-Balls instead. My son and I each shot more than a whole box of T/C .50 cal. 370 gr. Maxi's and never had to even use the brush or anything else to "clean between shots". I've found when teaching kids how to shoot a ML, it goes a lot easier and it's easier to get them "hooked" on BP if you don't encounter any problems that take-away the fun . I know it costs more and it's radically "non-traditional", but speaking from experience, it works. Kid's attention spans aren't well-suited to BP in general; they like the AR-15 and 30 rd. mags :shake: .

Hope this helps and all the best, Dave

 

[bpbrs]

patch is to big for a 45..that is a shotgun patch.
patch is to wet leaving bore wet causing hangfire.
my patch for 45 is between 3/4 and 1".same as my load patches.

 

[tradewind]

Thank you all. Your comments are very helpful. Please continue to share your expertise. My son and I don't have any friends who are into muzzleloaders. We are learning through trial and error. We bought the percussion rifle cheap at an estate sale. We couldn't find any BP but found Pyrodex and Triple 7. We also picked up lead balls and a few conicals. The rifle appears like the Triple 7 and 255 grain maxihunter.

Some of you have commented about a smaller chamber(for Lyman rifles) at the bottom of the barrel where fouling accumulates. Does this mean I need a smaller jag or brush (than the .45 cal) to clean in this area? Also, besides using a nipple pick, do shooters ever clean the passage way between the nipple and the barrel? Thank you.

 

[davy]

Your gun probably has a patent breech similar to this type. Notice the smaller antichamber. A smalller brush will get in this area to clean it out. :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[blacksmithman64]

Also there is a "special" breech plug scraper for this type of breech, I know T/C makes one, and I have to get one myself as I just aquired a T/C hawken.It has a radiused tip to fit in the powder well.Also get you some real black powder!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Don B]

According to the Lyman customer service person I talked to, the patent breech on their rifles is .360dia x 1 inch, and the back end is a drill point, not a radius. I haven't confirmed this with the forum, and it seems counter to some things I've read here. But if true, the T/C radiused scrapers will be worthless in a Lyman. And I haven't seen any scrapers compatible with a drill point breech.

Don

 

[tradewind]

If a smaller brush is needed to get into the chamber of this .45 cal rifle, what sized brush would I need to get? Also, wouldn't it also mean that using a .45 cal jag with a dry patch would NOT be able to get at the fouling in the chamber area? Thank you.

 

[FTW]

I use 777 in my .45 TC.I don't have missfires or hangfires.I use Hoppes #9 plus for patch lube.I don't have to nor do I want to swab between shots.I have shot as much as 58 shots without wiping between shots.As for the rod hanging up smaller patches and reducing the diameter of the jag will stop that.I clean with boiling water,it dries almost beforeyou can get a good rust preventative in the barrel.Bore butter will do nothing to stop rust and seasoning doesn't happen with modern steel.777 burns hotter than real blackpowder,I use 15 grs. of corn meal over 60 grs. of 777 and .020 patches with .440 round balls gets over 1900 fps.Been shooting this gun for over 30 years.It shoots this load as good as it ever did with goex.

 

I have a Lyman .50 GPR and the Lyman User's Guide for Black Powder Products states on page 13:

Note: The powder channel inside the breech plug is smaller than the bore diameter and does not allow the cleaning jag to enter. Lyman recommends the use of a .35 cal. cleaning brush and/or a slotted tip cleaning rod to reach into this area

To clean the ignition channel entirely, you have to remove the "Cleanout Screw" at the side of the "snail/bolster". Be careful, this is a tiny screw (in my case a so called "worm-screw" to be removed with a 2 mm allen wrench) that might have baked in the threads. Use WD 40 in this case and let sit for a few days, it should come out easily.

I clean this channel (gets right into the "patent" breech) with a pipe-cleaner and solvent, dry it up and treat the little screw with Crisco to have it removed the next time without problems.

I use Pyrodex P (40 grains) because black is not available for a decent price in a 2 million inhabitants town!

 

[Zonie]

The slotted jag is OK, but it won't really wipe the fouling off of the bore.

The main problem your son was having is due to the size of the patch he was wiping with.
A big patch like that will end up wedged between the shaft of the ramrod and the bore.

As bpb said, use a patch that is about 1 1/2 square or so for the .45 cal gun. I've found that the cleaning patches made for a .45 pistol work very well.

The mis-firing was due to the use of too much fluid. IMO, you need only enough on the patch to dampen the fouling on the downstroke.
After it hits bottom, wait a few seconds and pull it back out. Then one dry patch down once and back out should do the trick.
Don't worry about the powder chamber when your in the midst of shooting. The small amount of fouling that will collect in the patent breech (if your gun has one) will not affect the ignition unless it has become too wet from the use of too much fluid in wiping between shots.

zonie

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Zonie hits the nail on the head. Damp patches unless the gun is real dirty are just fine. Trust me I learned the hard way as you have. I wish I had the help of this forum when I started.

I also pretty much just use the alchohol to clean out oil before shooting. during my shooting I use water or something light like #13 from T/C to clean. I then use dry patches to make sure the barrel and breech are good to go. If you do do a wet cleaning while shooting put off a couple caps then clean the fire chamber before shooting again.

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings all,

with no disrespect ment to anyone, old iorn, old steel, new steel, they all have pores. the only diff is the size of the pores. if the steel had no pores and was perfectly smooth, there would be no fouling cause the fouling would have now place to stick.

so, we try to put a coating between the barrel and the fouling (patch lube) or we try to clean the fouling out as it occures (spit patch). or a combination of both(wiping the bore)..

some people are using slick-50 to season the bore.

..ttfn..grampa..