The effect of barrel length

[chorizo]

Guess this is why I like my 1803 Harpers Ferry, good enough for decent rnge shooting, easy to tote. Hard to improve on Perfection

The only thing that affects range on a carbine is the inability with some rifle loads to get the velocity of a rifle. With faster burning powders, you can come close to original, if not duplicate. Easier to do with a 24" version than say a 21" version of a 28" rifle. Accuracy is really only affected by the short sight radius of the shorter barrel, but as I am using a modified peep sight (a ghost ring) it seems to ameliorate the issue

I am trying to find a happy balance of barrel length/twist/velocity/caliber/powder load to make my guns 125 yard guns.

The standard I am trying for is 100 yard sight in, drop at 125 yards no more than 4" (I want it to be 3"), with a retained energy at 125 yards of at least 1100 ftlbs for elk and 800 ftlbs for deer. Accuracy needs to be 3" at 100 yards.
To achieve those ballistically, I need to run heavy for caliber, longer conical bullets with faster twist rifling. The bullets can trend lighter for caliber the larger the caliber. When I get over COVID and the weather improves some I am taking it to the range to find what I need.

In unmentionables, most calibers have generally accepted barrel lengths for burning the standard powder loads...22lr 16"...308 win 20" for example.

@Packrat Below is some calculation for a 58 cal 500 grain oversized minie I am going to try for my 24" 1:38 twist 58 cal carbine. I should be able to get that with around 100 grains of T7 FFg...I might have to switch to FFFg to get that though. Please note that I am using the more vigorous modern substitute for BP in an attempt to achieve these results. Also note that the 485gr 54 cal no excuses bullet gives me like readings, but I think it will be harder to obtain the higher velocity.

Once I have minimums on energy and drop, at that point it is all about accuracy

 

[tenngun]

Nope. Origins of the word go back to the 16th century. Carbine is used to described a shorter barreled, lighter version of a rifle. Modern secondary usage of the word has some relation to repeating firearm where the confusion comes from.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/carbine

Today if you google Fusil you will be taken to a page selling French shotguns.
Mortar used to be a short cannon, today it’s a rocket launcher
Musket started out as a big two man gun. Frigate a small trading ship. Look up gallon and you will see sixteenth century high stern ships, though big ships continued to be gallons long after that designed faded away
Words very much change definitions over the years.
Anything sold in a shambles is good to eat. Translation from St Paul when shambles met meat market

 

[tenngun]

The two by four test is good. I don’t think Ft pounds is an easy answer. Lots of deer taken with .45 and even .40.
Boons rifle was a .47 as I recall and he killed a deer or two,’ som bar on this tree’ and I bet he even ate a bit of buffalo and elk on occasion

 

[longwalk]

In Ohio use can use 38 cal. and up for deer.

 

[chorizo]

Yep, lots of correlation to killing 2x4 lumber and bear. No need for complicated calculations using real concrete numbers. For thicker skin game do you use hardwood vice pine though?

 

[longcruise]

The standard I am trying for is 100 yard sight in, drop at 125 yards no more than 4" (I want it to be 3"), with a retained energy at 125 yards of at least 1100 ftlbs for elk and 800 ftlbs for deer. Accuracy needs to be 3" at 100 yards.

It's a challenging and difficult task. I identify with your pursuit of a grail and hope you experience the satisfaction of achieving it.

However, from a practical standpoint it seems like pursuing a high flying butterfly net in hand when identical butterflies are all around you resting peacefully on leaves.

 

[chorizo]

It's a challenging and difficult task. I identify with your pursuit of a grail and hope you experience the satisfaction of achieving it.

However, from a practical standpoint it seems like pursuing a high flying butterfly net in hand when identical butterflies are all around you resting peacefully on leaves.

Good point. No argument there. But what the hell else have I got to do? This is great entertainment for me. Practical not, but then again the Wright Bros were being a bit impractical too.

I don't think identical solutions are out there yet. Close maybe..to use a butterfly analogy also...like the difference between a tiger butterfly and a monarch, but not the same.

Commercially, replica traditional guns were cutting a balance between RB usage and conical twist rates and traditional barrel lengths for marketing and commercial purposes. The few carbines I have found commercially available are an Ardesa 50 cal 21" with 1:32 twist and a like 24" version in 54cal 1:38 . I think the modern sabot crowd stepped on further offerings so those guns, not historically accurate, were not commercially viable with modern inlines filling the voids and hindering further commercial models. Toss in more vigorous modern substitute powders, I think there is a void left to explore.

But then again, I might just be pissing in the wind too!

 

[tenngun]

Yep, lots of correlation to killing 2x4 lumber and bear. No need for complicated calculations using real concrete numbers. For thicker skin game do you use hardwood vice pine though?

I guess hardwood would work.
Want to kill a turkey or a rabbit? How much umph does a shot gun need.
A tuna can is a good measure. If you shot goes through a tuna can bottom it will put turkey on the table.
One can buy a chronograph and do calculations, one can shoot ballistic jell. All great. But let’s say you don’t want to invest in all that. Is there a magic number?
Maybe.
Will your ball carry through the vitals of your game?
2x4 is a handy test. I’ve used it my self. A .50 CVA Mountian pistol will do it at twenty five yards. And I shot one deer with it at about that range and it made two holes.
At fifty my pistol couldn’t cut all the way through
So I rated my pistol at twenty five yards enough, but not beyond that
So,
What did I have?
40 grains three f under patched round ball, 9 inch barrel. I have no chronograph.
Lyman shows a 190 grain conical with a 34 grain charge getting 863 in a 7.5 inch barrel using 4 fg
So I can guesstimate around 8-900 fps in a .50
A .50 at 800 fps slows to 750 at twenty five yards and a whopping 226 ft pounds
At 900 it’s 835 and 281 ft pounds
At fifty yards it’s 198 ft pounds to 245.
Since it went through a 2x4 at twenty five but not at fifty I’m thinking it was the lower end of the scale in terms of velocity.
So approximately 225 ft pounds is needed. And that shots through and through a deer chest
Would a lower end do it?
Ask the boys that take deer with a .45 or .40

 

[chorizo]

Yeah, but was it rough cut or dimensional lumber? Just jerking your chain. Use what works for you. As a retired Aviator and long range unmentionable shooter, I lean more to the analytical, repeatable and documented modern methods. Saves powder, bullets, time and not to mention, a few 2x4s.

 

[longcruise]

@tenngun I wish I could even hit a 2×4 at 50 yards with an ml pistol.

25 yards maybe 50%. But that's just me I'm sure.

 

[PARidgeRunner]

I think using more than fifty grains of Pyro would increase the muzzle velocity difference also. I'd love to see the test repeated with 75 and 100 grains. Great video and it confirms a favorite quote of mine: "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." - Wernher von Braun.

When I was young and strong, my personal preference was very long barrels. With advancing age, I appreciate medium lengths and carbines more every year.

Excellent! I was spitballing the velocity of the round ball. the link within the link is good!

http://www.namlhunt.com/traditionalmldata1.html

Thank you Chorizo for the chart, that is helpful and kind of you to send it.

 

[tenngun]

Yeah, but was it rough cut or dimensional lumber? Just jerking your chain. Use what works for you. As a retired Aviator and long range unmentionable shooter, I lean more to the analytical, repeatable and documented modern methods. Saves powder, bullets, time and not to mention, a few 2x4s.

It was rough cut as a matter of fact. I bought much from a local saw mill
It was .25 a board foot then, .28 for oak.
Looking at todays lumber prices a chronograph might be a lot cheaper then shooting 2x4s

 

[chorizo]

A good read on PRB

http://namlhunt.com/traditionalmlhunt-blog/the-magical-patched-round-ball9569127
Another good one relating to twist rates

http://namlhunt.com/traditionalmlhunt-blog/archives/11-2015

 

[tenngun]

A good read on PRB

http://namlhunt.com/traditionalmlhunt-blog/the-magical-patched-round-ball9569127

Everything he says is spot on, except i don’t think you need x amount of energy to kill a deer, or a Buffalo. A hole near a half inch through lungs or heart or in to the spine puts Bambi in the table.
However, there is nothing magic about ball. It is the worse possible projectile
Hunt with ball you need to stay close. You can learn your range. So I’m not going to slap anyone who took a muley at a hundred and fifty yards, but I think a round a hundred should be max. And fifty is better, twenty five is best.
Conicals buy you some range. A maxi, real,minnie is hands down better than ball.
But a 30-06 or even a 30-30 is hands down better then any ml.
If you hunt with smoke poles and the biggest joke ever played on shooters, ie round balls, if your depending on flint sparks and a dark are explosive then hunt with it like it in primitive form

 

[chorizo]

Everything he says is spot on, except i don’t think you need x amount of energy to kill a deer, or a Buffalo. A hole near a half inch through lungs or heart or in to the spine puts Bambi in the table.
However, there is nothing magic about ball. It is the worse possible projectile
Hunt with ball you need to stay close. You can learn your range. So I’m not going to slap anyone who took a muley at a hundred and fifty yards, but I think a round a hundred should be max. And fifty is better, twenty five is best.
Conicals buy you some range. A maxi, real,minnie is hands down better than ball.
But a 30-06 or even a 30-30 is hands down better then any ml.
If you hunt with smoke poles and the biggest joke ever played on shooters, ie round balls, if your depending on flint sparks and a dark are explosive then hunt with it like it in primitive form

Again, my anecdotal observations on terminal ballistics, in which we disagree, is based upon my observations on the game out west where I hunt. These aren't what we call pocket deer, rather some rather tough, large mule deer and elk. I believe that you do need 800/1100 ftlbs respectively for deer and elk. And furthermore, I want pass through to ease tracking in already difficult conditions. I will post a picture of a 375 gr 54 cal bullet at 1520 fps that hit a moderately sized cow elk this fall. The bullet entered the shoulder, breaking a solid leg bone as it went into the shoulder, through the heart and lungs both sides and lodged between the ribs under the skin at the far side. That bullet had about 1400 ftlbs of energy at impact at 85 yards. The .pdf at bottom provides the ballistics. No pass through and not a lick of blood. If she hadn't died within the 20 yards that she did, say going on for 100, she would have been extremely difficult to find due to all of the fresh elk tracks in the area and the terrain and foliage.

All of my calculations shown have been exterior ballisitcs...the flight of a bullet to impact....nothing about impact other than I am using the bench mark of 800/1100 ftlbs of energy as the minimum I need at 125 yards. How much does it take to punch through the rough cut hard wood you are using??? I don't think either one of us knows....Hell it could be upwards of 800...but I doubt it. Does shooting a 2x4 provide some indication of something, if so what? Will that round kill an elk at 125 yards or a deer at 125 yards? In short, you are arguing terminal ballistics, I am arguing exterior ballistics with an recognized minimum terminal starting point.

My point is that by using accepted and widely studied and derived upon figures that provide an ethical kill at the ranges I desire by using methods that aren't simply a guess, I can get a carbine load that I can use. As such, my calculations have been to provide me a flat shooting gun out to 125 yards with retained energy above the recommended 800/1100 ftlbs.

 

[Sun City]

Just saw it off even with end of fore-arm and you can use it as a cricket bat!!

 

[tenngun]

Again, my anecdotal observations on terminal ballistics, in which we disagree, is based upon my observations on the game out west where I hunt. These aren't what we call pocket deer, rather some rather tough, large mule deer and elk. I believe that you do need 800/1100 ftlbs respectively for deer and elk. And furthermore, I want pass through to ease tracking in already difficult conditions. I will post a picture of a 375 gr 54 cal bullet at 1520 fps that hit a moderately sized cow elk this fall. The bullet entered the shoulder, breaking a solid leg bone as it went into the shoulder, through the heart and lungs both sides and lodged between the ribs under the skin at the far side. That bullet had about 1400 ftlbs of energy at impact at 85 yards. The .pdf at bottom provides the ballistics. No pass through and not a lick of blood. If she hadn't died within the 20 yards that she did, say going on for 100, she would have been extremely difficult to find due to all of the fresh elk tracks in the area and the terrain and foliage.

All of my calculations shown have been exterior ballisitcs...the flight of a bullet to impact....nothing about impact other than I am using the bench mark of 800/1100 ftlbs of energy as the minimum I need at 125 yards. How much does it take to punch through the rough cut hard wood you are using??? I don't think either one of us knows....Hell it could be upwards of 800...but I doubt it. Does shooting a 2x4 provide some indication of something, if so what? Will that round kill an elk at 125 yards or a deer at 125 yards? In short, you are arguing terminal ballistics, I am arguing exterior ballistics with an recognized minimum terminal starting point.

My point is that by using accepted and widely studied and derived upon figures that provide an ethical kill at the ranges I desire by using methods that aren't simply a guess, I can get a carbine load that I can use. As such, my calculations have been to provide me a flat shooting gun out to 125 yards with retained energy above the recommended 800/1100 ftlbs.

View attachment 195865View attachment 195866View attachment 195867View attachment 195868

It takes around 2-250 ft pounds as near as I can figure based on the tables I have

 

[longcruise]

My second ever deer (mature mulie buck) and my first elk (mature bull) were taken with the 370 maxi. Both were slow deaths .

The buck was double lunged at about 50 yards with a charge of 100 grains of goex 3f and literally walked away and around a hill. I followed closely as he covered about 150 yards. Being unaware of me he did what most deer do when hit but still alive he layed down facing directly away from me. I sneaked to within about 25 yards and he was still not aware of my presence but his ears were standing straight up. When they are close to expiring there ears will be down. I decided he was probably capable of jumping to his feet and continuing on so I put another maxi in the back of his neck.

That stupid deer apparently did not realize how many FPE he had taken.

The bull was hit perfect broadside with the maxi. He was all alone and didn;t have a cow to tell him to get the H%*l out of there so he milled around looking every direction. I had jumped behind a spruce to reload. The behaviour of the bull was such that I was certain I had missed. Once reloaded I stepped out from behind the spruce and he spotted me immediately. We were in a narrow valley at about 10,500 feet. If youve been in the west you know that the edges of the valley are where the thick black timber begins. I was about to shoot the second shot and the bull keeled over.

Now, he had been on his feet for at least 20 seconds or more from the time of the hit until he dropped. An elk can travel a long long way in that amount of time. It would have been one long track if he had bolted.

To give an idea of how far an elk can go in a hurry, A lead cow that I double lunged and took out the top of the heart lasted literally five seconds and traveled a little over 100 yards.

So, I'm not enamored with conicals. Yes, they are good but really I consider the maxi to be the bottom of that heap. I still play with them now and then and have recently acquired a lee mold for their 50 modern minie. It has a flat nose and is probably a better killer. Several of my grandkids are conical shooters so I keep them supplied and I'll have them try the Lee minies.

I don't put much stock in Toby's opinions on muzzle loading and I've seen his 800/1100 fpe theory disproven too many times.

 

[SLOTHEAD]

Nope. Origins of the word go back to the 16th century. Carbine is used to described a shorter barreled, lighter version of a rifle. Modern secondary usage of the word has some relation to repeating firearm where the confusion comes from.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/carbine

Thanks for the clarification Wordnik!

 

[tenngun]

There is no magic bullet. Ball is the bottom of the heap. And even massive wounds a deer bear or other animal can cover lots of ground before dying.
We had an outdoor bath in the woods on our balcony. My wife called for help and I went out there to find a possum on the balcony with her.
I grabbed a .22 magnum pistol and put three shots in the guys chest with out seeming effects
I had a .65 horse pistol loaded with ball and 50 grains three f.
I grabbed it and banged away at possum.rolled him. Off the balcony nine foot drop to a stone wall. Plop
I heard him crawling in to the woods. There was bits of lung and I think liver and enough blood to paint our cabin.
Yet it crawled out in to the wood. I got a flash light and went out to find it, make sure it was dead
Went about 1/4 mile, found blood and gore, never found possum
I’ve had lots of deer go down drt, lots run
Shot placement counts more then anything else
Remember Spartacus ‘this is the slow kill, the slow kill might have enough fight to kill you before he dies’ .
I hunt just with ball. But I respect it for what it is