The effect of barrel length

[SlidePicker]

Could you elaborate on this? I get FFF builds more pressure, just don’t understand the thumbnail part

I understood that as another way of saying "rule of thumb."

 

[chorizo]

hahahaha Hold your thumb up, stick your arm out and use your thumbnail to measure something at a distance...It is a figure of speech

FFF build pressure faster, giving you a sooner pressure peak and because it has to push the bullet down the bore but has less time to do it (powder burning quicker), usually a higher pressure peak is generated, more pressure equates to higher velocity (usually). Heavier powder loads have less affect on lighter bullets (RB). Heavier bullets (conicals) the affect is more pronounced.

Bottom line: if you are using somewhere around 80 grains, then the same volume with a step finer powder, folks have found a 10% increase in velocity. I have not validated that with a chrono yet, but based upon my reading, I intend to use that to recover lost velocity from the shorter barrel carbines by using a finer grade of powder. I originally got this concept from Val Forgett who used 180 grains of FFFg in his 58 cal Hawken Hunter shooting 610 grain conical on his Africa hunt and 120 grains FFFg with the same bullet in the Buffalo hunter 58 cal...the Hawken had 28" and the Buffalo hunter had 26" barrels

I have base line velocities for several of my guns with FFg T7. I will be using FFFg T7 for the next round of tests.

 

[longcruise]

Longcruise, What was the powder charge used for your tables in grains and granulation? Was it black powder or a substitute? 70 grains of FFFg in my .54 caliber with a 33 and 1/3 inch long barrel as a flint and percussion is sufficient for actual harvests on deer, elk and antelope to a hundred yards and beyond. My goal and preference is get close as you can. Last pronghorn bagged was 15 yards.

I think you were talking about this?:

That was calculated with this app on my android phone.

The parameters were: Traditions Deer Hunter rifle, 50 caliber, 24" barrel, 495 RB, .018 patch, 60 grains of Scheutzen 3f.

I have an excel spreadsheet that calculates G1 ballistic coefficients for round balls. I might be able to attach it here in a post if you or anyone else might find it useful. Probably not until tomorrow since I need to do it from my desktop.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A Thompson Center White Mountain Carbine

Thanks, my brain only came up with "Winchester metallic cartridge", and I knew that wasn't right......

LD

 

[smokepolehall]

Where do you think tissue damage comes from? Since you can't measure tissue damage with a chronometer, you got to use what CAUSES tissue damage to measure it.

Well documented studies of energy/tissue damage/bullet types abound.

Helps if you read the articles provided before commenting.

800 ftlbs for deer, 1000 ftlbs for elk

http://www.namlhunt.com/rbhunting1.html

How do you explain a .41 cal at 410 lbs at muzzle double lungs, in & exit at est. 30 yds on tick toters n not a fluke. Foot lbs energy scale is a joke

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Very long barrels are highly overrated

Lets see those short barrels make 2050fps, my 42 inch barrel does.

What has pledged shooters of black powder is the only was t get more speed and distance is to make the barrel longer.
This follow into BPC. In order to get more distance they kept adding a 1/2 inch to the cartridge.
Thats why the 45/70 led tot eh 45/90. 45/100. and the 45/120.
All in the quest to shoot further.

 

[chorizo]

How do you explain a .41 cal at 410 lbs at muzzle double lungs, in & exit at est. 30 yds on tick toters n not a fluke. Foot lbs energy scale is a joke

And on-off anecdotal evidence is rock solid? These there I was, shooting my old thumblicker stories are starting to remind me of those fellows hanging around gun stores with a toothpick hanging out of their mouth, hat on the back of their head telling improbable tales while scratching their bellies.

Keep shooting what you want, hell even start your own improbable story thread.

 

[flintlock lover.]

Hmmm.. I always thought a carbine by definition was a repeating arm.???

Nope, I've got several different reports written at Springfield Armory during the US Civil War testing the accuracy and range differences between "infantry rifles" compared to the "Calvary Carbine".
Interesting read on how they were tested.
Federal Calvary tended to fight dismounted, the horse being just a faster way to move those troops into position.
Some of those carbines were repeaters that were tested after 1864, IE: Spencers, but most were single shot. In the tests conducted 1862-63 over half were muzzleloaders.

 

[Billy Boy]

Everything he says is spot on, except i don’t think you need x amount of energy to kill a deer, or a Buffalo. A hole near a half inch through lungs or heart or in to the spine puts Bambi in the table.
However, there is nothing magic about ball. It is the worse possible projectile
Hunt with ball you need to stay close. You can learn your range. So I’m not going to slap anyone who took a muley at a hundred and fifty yards, but I think a round a hundred should be max. And fifty is better, twenty five is best.
Conicals buy you some range. A maxi, real,minnie is hands down better than ball.
But a 30-06 or even a 30-30 is hands down better then any ml.
If you hunt with smoke poles and the biggest joke ever played on shooters, ie round balls, if your depending on flint sparks and a dark are explosive then hunt with it like it in primitive form

It’s easy to get within 200yds of a deer, the challenge for a hunter is to get close enough to smell their breath - every time. Can’t always do it, its very hard but thats the game for me. Then, what you carry doesn’t matter much. My hunt this year was not great, got my groceries but I had to shoot at a range I don’t usually have to - 60 yds. A ‘normal’ shot tor me is a little under 20, i’m getting clumsier by the month..

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Lets see those short barrels make 2050fps, my 42 inch barrel does.

What has pledged shooters of black powder is the only was t get more speed and distance is to make the barrel longer.
This follow into BPC. In order to get more distance they kept adding a 1/2 inch to the cartridge.
Thats why the 45/70 led tot eh 45/90. 45/100. and the 45/120.
All in the quest to shoot further.

Of course you're correct, as far as it goes. I look at things from a different point of view since nearly all my hunting shots have been at close range so I don't need 2050 fps to make a clean kill. I suspect a 54 caliber ball at 1000 fps will kill anything I need to shoot. I'm out of the Brown Bear country now but when I was there I sure didn't fool around in the bush with a muzzle loader. I packed a lever action 45-70 with some hot smokeless loads. Luckily I never needed it!

 

[Zutt-man]

It’s easy to get within 200yds of a deer

This depends on the terrain and time of year

 

[smokepolehall]

And on-off anecdotal evidence is rock solid? These there I was, shooting my old thumblicker stories are starting to remind me of those fellows hanging around gun stores with a toothpick hanging out of their mouth, hat on the back of their head telling improbable tales while scratching their bellies.

Keep shooting what you want, hell even start your own improbable story thread.

My my you want to be the expert of the experts but you an't so stop the pompus spouting

 

[longcruise]

This depends on the terrain and time of year

I'll bet it can be tough unless you have a thick river bottom.

The idea that hunting in the Rockies is typically a long range proposition is not exactly correct. It certainly can be but not always. I bow hunt and ml hunt the same country and manage to be mostly in timber.

 

[chorizo]

I'll bet it can be tough unless you have a thick river bottom.

The idea that hunting in the Rockies is typically a long range proposition is not exactly correct. It certainly can be but not always. I bow hunt and ml hunt the same country and manage to be mostly in timber.

Like Longcruise, my area I typically hunt varies from thick timber to open terrain. It runs in pockets. Typically, a 125 yard shot will get you from one side of an opening to another. In the mosaic burns the elk will pass through the edges travelling but come out around the openings in the evenings and mornings during rut.

With abundance of wolves around they are especially wary to anything that may not be right so it is really tough to get close to them if you have to move. the ability to make a 125 yard shot comes in handy, but is my self imposed limit with iron sights and a ML. Below is a typical area. You can see open from burns, yet pockets of timber where 50-75 yards would be your shot. With an unspeakable you can get out to 500 yards and beyond (if you want to pack something out with a 1000 ft climb). I tend to hunt the timber fringes and passes and let the game come to me. Spot and stalk is tough in this country. Lots of times by the time you get around to where they are they have moved to another unreachable spot. In the picture below I watched a herd of cow elk come boiling over the far ridgeline. pass below me and out over a far ridgeline behind me in about 15 to 20 minutes...they easily traveled 3000 yards dropped and climbed, dropped again and climbed out at least 1000 to 1500 ft each climb and drop. As I saw no wolves chasing them I only can assume they were bumped by hunters. As the movie says...no country for old men

For reference: that tree gap on the far ridgeline is right around 1400 yards out. That lone green pine tree in the middle of the pic at the shadow line is 325 yards

BTW: The laugh is "at" not "with".. don't choke on the toothpick.

 

[longcruise]

It looks like this where I hunt. One of my favorite traffic areas. This is trail cam but you can see how much time you get.

 

[longcruise]

And sometimes your glad you aren’t actually holding the camera

 

[chorizo]

Same basic area spring time wolf hunting

But they can get close

 

[chorizo]

But with all of the pictures, you got to go where they are, when they are. Because of the wolves, they are highly mobile here. One day in one basin, the next day 5 miles away in another because they were chased. If a pack pulls into an area. All scouting patterns are out the window. That is why I like my carbines. Lighter and easier to toss on your shoulder with your pack and start hoofing it to where they are!

 

[Zutt-man]

I'll bet it can be tough unless you have a thick river bottom.

The idea that hunting in the Rockies is typically a long range proposition is not exactly correct. It certainly can be but not always. I bow hunt and ml hunt the same country and manage to be mostly in timber.

I have some buddies that strictly spot and stock bow hunt on western Kansas. They have my respect

 

[tenngun]

Lets see those short barrels make 2050fps, my 42 inch barrel does.

What has pledged shooters of black powder is the only was t get more speed and distance is to make the barrel longer.
This follow into BPC. In order to get more distance they kept adding a 1/2 inch to the cartridge.
Thats why the 45/70 led tot eh 45/90. 45/100. and the 45/120.
All in the quest to shoot further.

Conicals fired in a breech loader are a world of difference from a PRB
You’re not going to get the same velocity from a SBR as a ‘real gun’. However all the umph you buy with an extra foot of barrel is pretty much lost between fifty and a hundred yard
If you’re shooting conical, those will hold velocity better then ball, and those extra inches can kick up your speed. At this point the question is if it’s worth the extra weight and ease of carry.
A .45 bullet is, even in the early design from the 1870s better then any minie, maxi or real, and any breechloader makes far better use of powder